San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets

UPDATE 10/19/2005: 9 months after the ticket, I got the appeal decision in the mail. I won!

Like many cities in California, San Francisco has been using Automated Enforcement Systems (a.k.a. “Red Light Cameras”) at many of its intersections for several years now. Although the stated purpose is (of course) for safety, the real reason is revenue. If you are the unlucky recipient of one of the citations in the mail (as yours truly recently was) then this website is for you. It explains your options and relates my experience with the San Francisco court system.

Your choices:

  • The picture isn’t of you. The registered owner is who gets sent the ticket. If the picture is not of you, sign the attached affidavit saying that the picture isn’t of you. Don’t lie — you’re saying under the penalty of purjury that it’s not you in the ticket. DO NOT, however, TELL THEM WHO IS IN THE PICTURE. It’s their job to figure that out, not yours. Don’t rat out your friends and family.
  • Pay it. If $371 is worth less to you than a lost morning in court, then just pay the ticket and move on. You may or may not want to do traffic school to keep the points from appearing on your license. While I’ve never done it myself, I hear the on-line version of traffic school is fairly painless.
  • Trial + Traffic school. This is probably the best option for most people. Go to the clerk.  Post bail (the amount of your ticket) and plead not-guilty.  Get a time for trial. SHOW UP ON TIME. When the court session starts, the clerk will allow you to have your fine reduced to only $50 if you take traffic school (with a $30 fee). For a total of $80, you’re done and the points are not added to your license. NOTE: If you’ve already done traffic school in the past 18 months, you’re not eligible to do it again. Sorry.
  • Plead not-guilty. Lots of options here. You can skip the arraignment and demand your right to a speedy trial (within 45 days) by going to the clerk and posting the $371 bond. Sometimes, due to the short notice, the officer isn’t properly subpoenaed and won’t know that he/she needs to testify against you (this happened in my case). If the officer doesn’t appear to testify, your case is dismissed. Or, the officer could already be in court to testify against other people and will realize that she needs to testify against you too, and will testify anyway (yep, this happened to me).Or, you can go to your arraignment and plead not-guilty there. This gives you the chance to make pre-trial motions. This makes the process very drawn-out — expect your trial date to be many months in the future.

Pleading not-guilty

NOTE WELL: This takes a lot of time and will really try your patience. DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN. In fact, you should expect to lose. Sorry, but the trial court for traffic and other infractions in San Francisco assumes GUILT. Moreover, the red light camera systems are considered infallible and therefore beyond reproach. AGAIN, YOU WILL LOSE.

Don’t waste your time

  • People often say that with traffic cases you should plead not-guilty and take your chances that the officer won’t show up. (If the officer doesn’t show up, your case is immediately dismissed.) I would agree with this strategy for all non-red light camera tickets. However, from what I can tell, the officers assisting with the red light camera prosecutions do not have normal police “beats”, and instead have a desk job, probably in the same building. This means they have a high liklihood of showing up.
  • If you are planning to contend that you don’t run red lights, you are a safe driver, and you’ve never done it before, do not waste your time. (Most murderers haven’t murdered anyone before, either.) You will be found GUILTY. Your fine will be lowered to $300, but they won’t grant you traffic school. You are better off taking the $80 buy-off deal mentioned above.
  • If you are planning to contend that the light was really yellow and the camera was wrong or broken, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME. You will be found GUILTY. I promise. Don’t forget the the cameras are considered infallible by the trial court judge. Even if it was broken!

Argue the law

While the cameras themselves might be considered infallible, the city has errored in the way they are set up and operated. You should expect to LOSE at trial even if you object to the evidence on these grounds. HOWEVER, these MAY help you get your ticket overturned in appeal. That’s right, if you want any chance of winning, you will have to APPEAL. This takes a lot of time and energy. If you’re fed up and willing to put in the time it takes to appeal, then go ahead and plead not-guilty. Otherwise, don’t waste your time and take the $80 buy-out deal.

What to do:

  • Buy the book Fight Your Ticket in California from Nolo Press. Make sure you get thee one specifically for California.
  • Go to the Hall of Justice (850 Bryant St.) with a copy of your citation many weeks before your trial. Parking hint: You can park on 6th street after 9am. so show up at 8:59 and you’ll have all the free parking you want. Otherwise you might have to pay the garages that charge $6 for the first 1/2 hour. Go to the 5th floor, turn right at the hallway, and go to the end. This is the Police Legal department. Tell the friendly officers (really, they have always been very friendly in this office) that you want to fill out an “Informal discovery request”. They will give you a short form. Fill it out, and the City’s “Photo prosecution packet” will be sent to you. This is exactly what they will present at trial, which is always a good thing to have beforehand.

Issues:

(For a good overview of many of these issues, read Highwayrobbery.net).

  • The city has not property issued warning tickets as required by 21455.5. CVC (California vehicle code) 21455.5 allows cities to put up Automated Enforcement Systems if they follow the guidelines set forth in the statue. One of the statutes is that “Prior to issuing citations under this section, a local jurisdiction utilizing an automated traffic enforcement system shall commence a program to issue only warning notices for 30 days.” While most cities (I believe San Francisco is included) took this to mean warning tickets only needed to be issued 30 days before the first camera in a city, a recent court ruling in Southern California mandated that EACH camera is succeptible to the 30-day rule. At trial, I suggest asking the prosecution’s witness (the officer) if they issued only warning tickets for the first 30 days of YOUR camera’s operation.
  • CVC 21455.5 also has very strict requirement with respect to intersection signage. 21455.5(a) basically says the city has to label an AES-enabled intersection from all sides. There is one exception: if they choose not to label the intersection from all sides, then it can “posts signs at all major entrances to the city, including, at a minimum, freeways, bridges, and state highway routes.” Note that San Francisco DOES NOT post the required signs on major city entrances like bridges, freeways, and state highway routes. Instead, they choose to label major freeway exits. This is not compliant with the letter or the spirit of the law. While some AES-enforced intersections ARE labeled with signage in all direction, many are completely un-labeled meaning the city is falling back on the fact that they think they’ve labeled the “freeways, bridges, and state highway routes”. If you bring this up at trial (as I did) expect to LOSE. By bringing it up at trial, though, you can use it in your appeal.
  • Interesting pre-trial motions. Present them at your arraignment. They probably won’t work, but might be useful ammunition during your appeal.
    • Try to subpoena the camera’s “source code”. The camera is more than a camera. It’s a computer. You have the right to question your accuser in court. Your accuser is this computer. You should have the right to know exactly how it is programmed. If this motion is granted, you will probably never see the “source code” (it’s a trade secret) and therefore I would expect the prosecution to drop the charges. It’s worth a shot. It will probably help your case if you know how (ie have the credentials) to interpet any “source code” that you might receive.
  • The camera is disallowed under California’s “Speed trap” laws. This is a very interesting one, and will take further research. CVC 40801 forbids speed traps in California. “What does this have to do with Red Light Cameras?” you might ask. Well, let me tell you. CVC 40801 says “No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.” CVS 40802 says “A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.” What does this mean to you? Well, the Red Light Computer decided to take a picture of you because you were headed for the intersection at a rate of speed high enough to assume that you were going to go past the ‘stop line’. It knew this because there are coils of wire in the pavement in each lane that are a set distance apart. It calculated your speed by securing the time it takes your vehicle to travel the known distance. Sound familiar? CVC 40801 now says they can’t use this evidence to prosecute you. But they did anyway, and now you have grounds to fight it. I didn’t try this angle, but I have a feeling you’ll LOSE if you do. But I want to hear about how it went, so write to me.

I’d love to hear from you. Write to me at aren /at/ thesandersens dotcom with your experiences.

933 thoughts on “San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets”

  1. Hello, I live in orange county and today i stop at a red light thinking I was suppose to stop before the pedestrian white mark. However, there was another white line which my front bumper cross over. I was flash a few times with the camera. Will i be getting a ticket or will i be let go since i did stop and did not attempt on running a red light. I just stop a little too far. Thanks

  2. HI is the defense for camera code still valid. it was a few years ago when u send it was but its ’12 still wondering if i can use that defense.

    red light camera was at 1st and Folsom, i was also looking at my GPS at the time

    And, ive seen videos of ppl saying how its not even a point on your record.

    Also if i rat out someone else, since that pic doesnt look like me anyways ive been told i still need to provide address.
    Lastly those sites starting $200 and up for their ticket defense services, is that worth it. i heard it was a scam.

    Id love to hear the outcome for all ur cases, if you can have them post a reply of their outcomes that would be most helpful especially citations that happened during the last couple years.

  3. Also if anyone won the blurry defense id love to hear how you answered and what the judge asked..the pic in my case doesnt look like me and is very blurry..i even checked the citation site they provided..also does the judge use the same site and will they attempt to zoom in.

  4. @ Don —If your front bumper protruded past the first white line of a crosswalk, you have committed a violation. Will you receive a ticket? I doubt it, but it will depend on the RLC tech or cop. If a ticket is issued, the registered owner must receive it in the mail by the 15th day since the date of violation. Wait and see and re-post – YES or No.

  5. People v. Borzakian was decided in 2012, and overturned a conviction of an attorney for failing to stop at a red light. Its a good discussion of evidence issues for those considering trial, and throws out a conviction where the witnesses called by the prosecution included a police officer to lay the foundation for the private company’s records for maintenance of the camera in question. A critical issue was the failure to call an employee of that company who could testify from his personal knowledge about the maintenance and accuracy of the camera, as well as the preparation of the maintenance records. The defendant made the correct objections and challenged the officer on the issues, then took it up on appeal when the trial court refused to give any credence to her evidentiary objections.

  8. Hi Roger, btw the best blog ever. I was driving a company’s car(limo) on June 3rd around 12:30 am on s.vaness and 14 and saw a red light camera flash. I was driving a van and couldn’t stop on the yellow. My question is what’s the procedure if you’re driving a company’s car? Should I let my boss know about it before he receives the notice? Thanks

  9. Julia – The bill passed in Calif Senate SB 1303 eases the way to admit the camera evidence at trial. It does not affect the “blurry photo” defense. BTW most judges I have seen (about a dozen) when comparing the RLC photos to either your DMV photo or your real life appearance seem to use the standard, “does it clearly show that it is NOT you.” I have only witnessed one judge who uses the proof beyond a reasonable doubt (the proper standard) that does the photo “clearly show that it IS you. Good luck.

  10. Nate: This is crucial. Probably by June 14th your company may get a ticket in the mail. Do your best to find out who will get that letter and alert him to the fact that a ticket may arrive in the mail. It will either be a real ticket issued to the company or a “snitch” ticket issued to the company. If he or she (probably the owner or your supervisor) is enlightened or can be enlightened, you can explain that no one has to pay the fine. If you are approached about it you want to make sure no one writes your name on the back and mails it back. MAKE SURE YOU INTERCEPT THE TICKET BEFORE YOU ARE “NOMINATED.” Maybe, assure the boss you will take care of the matter and get the ticket. Then repost or contact me. What you do depends on whether it is a real ticket registered with the court or a fake ticket.
    rlouisj@aol.com

  11. Roger,

    Quick question: is red time and late time the same thing? How can I read it? The web-site says I have 0.3 sec. But I cannot find out how they came up with this number. I heard somewhere that It can be very good defense if I have red/ate time lower that 0.4 sec?

  12. I believe on SF tickets, the time into red is either referred to on the data bar as red time. It is also known as late time. The only other numbers I recall are speed which would be 25 or 35 or yellow light time which would be 3.0 or 3.5 or some similar type number. The only number on the data bar in tenths of a second would be the time the light was red when you reached the limit line.
    Now, some city’s officers may offer some leniency or reduction or dismissal for a .3 seconds late time. Hayward was known for this and maybe San Leandro. I do not know about SF, but it is not usually a Commissioner who would offer such a deal.
    I could offer a good argument that the legal minimum yellow light time is not sufficient in all cases, but I can’t imagine any magistrate willing to entertain it. Strictly speaking yellow lights are legally set and in accordance with the law. (Just not Newton’s law).

  13. Please help I just got a red light ticket that happened last year. I’m really considering fighting this ticket because the picture is very blurry. I can’t see the eyes mouth or noise. I work for Safeway.com I know
    I was driving a Safeway truck but I don’t remember the truck number. The picture they have looks like a couple of the other drivers but I was the one that go pin for it. In the picture it doesn’t show the traffic lights at all. Do you think I have a good chance of winning my case.

  14. Marvin,

    Answer a few questions first. Was the ticket orignally issued to Safeway? Is the ticket now in your name? Who wrote your name on the original ticket and mailed it in to the camera company? You or your supervisor. Are you a Teeamster member?
    -Roger rlouisj@aol.com

  15. I posted here on Jan. 3 about a red light camera ticket that I got in SF. I filed a written objection to the ticket (per instructions linked to on this blog), based on the circumstances outlined in my blog post. Lo and behold, on May 25 I got a letter saying that the judged had pronounced me “Not Guilty” and ordered my $480 fine refunded. So thank you SF Red Light Camera blog! I urge everyone to fight their ticket if they think it is unjustified. It took a long time, but I won, and never had to appear in court.

    Question: does anyone know how long that refund takes?

  16. Jimm – I don’t know how long refund takes. I believe the official line is 6-8 weeks. Which judge signed your verdict? Congrats.

  17. In San Francisco, the cop does not have to show up. What original article is wrong. I know this from experience. The officer can submit a signed affidavit — good as his word. The cop was 100% wrong and I was so angry when he pulled me over because I understood what he was trying to pull. I stupidly argued with him and I’m sure he sent a signal to the courts to not let this one go. At court the cop did not show. I proved to the judge that I was in the right, using the officers own words in the affidavit. The judge even said she agreed my argument, to my face, in front of everyone in the course. The verdict was guilty.

    The officer does not need to be there. The courts can do whatever they like, despite the truth. Welcome to the real world.

  19. Roger,
    The notice I received on the court decision on my Trial by Written Declaration was issued by N. Gabriel, Deputy Clerk. There is no reference to a “Judge” on the notice that I can see. There is a signature for the “Judicial Officer” (is that the judge?), but it is completely illegible. I’m guessing that the things that helped me prevail were: 1) acknowledging that I did cross the crosswalk after the light turned red, which technically, was a violation; 2) noting that I had backed up out of the intersection before the cross-traffic started; 3) noting that none of the photos showed me actually CROSSING THE INTERSECTION after the light went red (why don’t the cameras address that?!?); 4) noting that the complex lane markings and lane restrictions at that particular intersection may confuse and distract out-of-towners just coming off the freeway; and 5) a very clean driving record (only 1 moving violation in the last 40 years).

    BTW, I received my $480 refund check last week, right after I posted above, so that was just a little over a month after the May 8 decision. But all told, for a supposed violation over Christmas break, it took about six months to get everything sorted out. Lesson learned: don’t drive into SF unless absolutely necessary, and if I do, drive even more slowly and watchfully, no matter how much people behind me are honking to go faster.

  20. Jimm…thanks for sharing the details. You had to do much to avoid the $500 fine. I contend the camera tickets’ robotic nature results in issuing tickets which no “cop on the corner” would have issued. Taking the human interaction out of the issuance of tickets results in citations not based on safety or any semblance of justice.

    Having a sworn officer pull you over, take out the ticket book, and issue the ticket is quite a bit different from a retired cop or “red light camera technician” days later sitting in front of their computer decide whether to hit the button or not.

  21. The ticket is currently under my name. My company filled out the ticket and blamed I on me. I went to the place where it happened 14th and Van ness looked around and noticed there was no sign indicating there was going to be a red light camera. Went all direction and didn’t even see one sign. Is it the law for the red light camera company to put signs up? I took a picture of everything for my court case. I even took a picture where the camera that took my picture. In my photo I could see the red and green light signal clearly. In the picture that they took you can’t see the trafic signal lights at all. I was trying to get a picture of the other driver that looks like me but he transfer to a new store. Do you think I have a sting case? Thanks for your help

  22. Hi Roger,
    Please, help me. I entered the intersection (in oceanside, CA) when the light was green, when i was half way over the crosswalk, the light turned yellow. I thought i can’t make it to the other side before the light turns red so I stopped. Two seconds later the light turned red, then I slowly backed up my car half way under the crosswalk. I wondered if my backing up was somehow activate the red light camera? I didn’t see the flash but maybe because I wore sun glasses or maybe it did flash when I turned my head to check before backing up the car. Do you think I’ll get a ticket for that and since I didn’t went through that intersection do you think the camera got my rear license plate? Please, help. i’ve been worried sick about it for 3 days

  23. Roger! I need some help on this one! I just received a ticket for $480 in the mail from a red light camera that happened almost a year ago! I was driving through SF to go see my girlfriend up in Sonoma. I was not familiar at all with the area at the time and was driving my gf’s moms minivan (better gas mileage than my VW bus). It actually happened at 1:00am and hour into my birthday. I was taking 19th to the golden gate bridge where there is a sharp left turn that dumps right into a intersection, Park Presidio and Fulton. Maybe some of you are familiar with this. As I bound the turn the light was green, it instantly turned yellow and I was at this point going to fast to slam on my brakes. Almost halfway through the intersection it turned red (this light change was much faster than any intersection i’d every been through in the San Luis Obispo County area) That’s when I got beamed by a ufo… I’d never heard of red light cameras before this incident. Anyway… My gf’s mom got the ticket in the mail.. I never said anything because I wasn’t sure if I’d actually get one or not but admitted to it right way when she got it ( we are pretty close). She took my info and sent it in…… before we found out that should could have just said it wasn’t her and blah blah blah……… now I have this stressful situation on my hands. I live 4 hours from SF…. I have a lot of friends there and wouldn’t mind heading up to try and fight this. Does this sound like a fight able ticket? JIMM!!! If you have any advice as I noticed you just got out of yours, please let me know! Thanks so much, how to hear back soon. It’s ridiculous, they took almost a year to get this to me (I thought I’d gotten out if it after she said it wasn’t her) and now they give me two weeks to deal with it! Doesn’t seem right… Regards, Tanner

  24. Jessica N….It is a bit hard to understand from your description what actually happened but it does not appear that a ticket will be mailed. If a ticket is being mailed it must be received by the registered owner within 15 days. Are you the owner and is the address on your license current? Try to relax. Re-post in a couple weeks.

  25. Tanner – These are the things come to mind. Does the statute of limitations come into play here? At trial, how does the cop know it is you driving? You are not the owner, nor are you related to the owner, nor do live within 200 miles of the owner. Of all the millions of people living between SF and Oceanside, who says it was me? The cop at trial will try to say, “because Mrs. so and so said it was you driving her car.” You say, “Objection, Hearsay.” before he finishes his sentence.
    You live far away and this whole business is too complicated for me, but I would suggest Ticketkick.com or ticketbuster.com of one of those outfits. I got a flyer recently which offered a money back refund if not successful. I would contact more than one and give that a go.

  27. So Friday night I was tagged by the dreaded Fell & Masonic left turn light. I was driving down Fell and all of the lights were green except the left turn light. I didn’t notice (neither did my gf) and the flashes went off. So I’m 99% certain that I’ll be getting the ticket in the mail soon. My question is, do you think the judge will grant me traffic school, even though I just took it last September for a speeding ticket on Hwy. 24? I’m really not that bad of a driver. This will be my 3rd ticket in 15 years of driving and I wasn’t maliciously trying to run the light – I just didn’t see it. Thoughts?

  29. Mike: If you have time plead Not Guilty. Is the photo clear enough to convict? Do you have time to mount a defense? Traffic School is available as long as it has been 18 months between dates of violation.

  30. Marvin – I had not responded because you seem confused as what might work. I suggest reading previous posts and reading up on website: highwayrobbery.net
    By the way, signs are not necessarily required at the intersection. It certainly sounds difficult to prove you ran a red light if there is no light visible in the photos.
    Maybe invest in one of the “ticketkick” type of websites.

  31. Roger, I understand what you are saying with the statue of limitations but unfortunately I do live within 200 miles of the owner and I feel if the photo was professionally analyzed you could possibly make out the structure of my face. I am not familiar with how the system works with these tickets. The reviews for the ticketkick looked 50/50 and I’m not sure if I should approach this myself or use someone else’s help like ticket kick. 480 dollars just seems ridiculous. The main points of argument I can find are that 1. I was going under the speed limit and not familiar with the area. 2. The stop light appeared to change must faster than I am familiar with. 3. It was not safe to stop as I had just rounded a very sharp turn and would have had to slam on my brakes with possible traffic behind me. There may be more points I am not bringing attention too. Do you think I can work with that or do you think I should just suck it up and pay it? I only have about a week left to make up my mind.

  32. Tanner: How much time can you invest in fighting the ticket? Call the court. By posting bail in advance, you may be able to get a trial date without making an appearance at arraignment. Save a trip. Now your main defense is identity. This sort of thing is often handled at arraignment. If the judge does not dismiss, plead not guilty and come back on the date of the trial. For the judge to dismiss the ticket, the judge must determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the photo is not clear enough to ID you. There is a HUGE difference between judges on this. You will be better able to present evidence at trial (look: here is a photo of my roommate (or brother) – he looks like me!)
    As far as your other strategies:
    a. not speeding and unfamiliar with the area – this will not help you. There is no provision in the vehicle code for running red lights because you are unfamiliar.
    b. Do you have evidence that the signal lights were malfunctioning or that the yellow light was shorter than the legal minimum? The fact that it appears to change faster is not evidence.
    c. If you were driving too fast in order to stop in time is not a defense.

    Anyway, any of these defenses cannot be used unless you move for a dismissal based on photographic evidence and a dismissal is denied. You certainly can’t bring up ID defense after admitting you were the driver.

  33. FYI FOR SAN FRANCISCO TICKETS
    I found this January 2012 posting on YELP under “Traffic Court.” It seems very relevant.

    “i don’t usually write reviews, the reason why i am writing this is to help others that might be in the same situation i was.

    So around august i was driving on 19th avenue in San Francisco and ran a red light (by .2 seconds). Since everything happened so quick i didn’t think it was directed to me as another car behind me also ran trough it. But sure enough that ticket came in the mail

    I have never gotten a ticket before, so to me this was all new. So when i opened this letter and i saw a $480.00 fine, plus traffic school, plus a $55 administrative fee to take traffic school, i was extremely pissed, that’s $535 plus traffic School!! Being a full-time college student who has to pay for his own things this was money that i could not afford to spend.

    so i came here to yelp and read a few of the reviews and i must say they were very helpful. Specially the one by Kelly C.

    Since i didn’t have $535+ dollars laying around i did as anyone would; i went to court.

    After reading about everyone’s misfourtune i decided to go early, really early. I was there 30 minutes before it opened, and thinking back, it was a great decision. I was probably the 10th in line. And it took 30 minutes for me to be helped. in 1 hour i was out of there. All i did was walked up to the clerk i did what Kelly said and chose not guilty and they gave me a court date. which was 5 months later! plenty of time to figure out how to pay for this ticket.

    So the court date comes around, being the punctual freak i am i arrived an hour early. (Which is something i don’t recommend) Arrive 20-30 mins early because security can get busy..You See i thought i was going to be called alone, in front of the judge or maybe in a room with a few people but nooooo. When they schedule your appointment, they also schedule a bunch of other people at that exact time too, So don’t expect to have your issues taken care of exactly at your appointment time. They go in alphabetical order so it can take up to 2 hours depending on everyone’s issues. PLAN AHEAD.

    My appointment as well as everyone’s else was scheduled to 10:30 There was probably 60 of us sitting outside, they then divided us in two rooms about 30 in each, as we all walked in and sat down .The judge wasn’t there yet, and the officer at the front of the room explained what behavior was expected of us.pretty much the basic no phones, no reading, no eating or drinking, or they will throw you out.

    After the officer told us everything a guy in fron of the room explained the options we had: First was to plead guilty and request a deduction, but You would NOT be able to take traffic school, if you are found guilty. And therefore losing a point in your license.
    Second: to Plead not guilty and have a formal hearing scheduled where the officer who gave you the ticket would be present and you can question him and tell the judge your side of the story. And he/she will then make her decision. Or if you had a red light ticket you would pretty much try to prove your innocence, for example: there wasn’t enough time between yellow or red or a car in front on you prevented you from going any faster, etc.
    Third: To take traffic school, For those of who got a red light, emergency vehicle, or school bus ticket, we had the option to have our fee reduced to $294 ,plus the $55 admin fee, plus traffic school.those with other violations had the same option and would have their fines reduced to $114. But unlike Kelly’s review they never told us we would be found guilty.

    I went for the deal, like Kelly said, they had my picture running the damn light, i had no excuses. And i wasn’t going to leave it to chance, So about 10 of us formed a line and we went up to him, i gave him my last name, but he didn’t write Guilty as Kelly stated , all he wrote was how much total it would cost and how long i had to pay it. Pretty much it came out to be $294+$55 so $349 plus traffic school.

    I walked in the room 10:30 , left at 10:50, 20 minutes and i saved $200 bucks, And avoided the point on my license. Plus they gave me another 3 months to pay for it.
    So pretty much i ended up with 8 months to pay the fine. Which was the best part because i was able to save money for it.

    If you have the money than paying the fine and being done with it might be easier for you, but for many like me this was a good way to save money. I definitely recommend it.

    Getting a ticket sucks, we all know, you are not alone, going to court sucks even more but It was totally worth the hassle.

    The only reason i am giving this place 4 stars is so others can read this review and be informed about their options.”

  34. Hi Roger and Aren, 1st i would like to thank both of you for all the great info and time u have put into this blog.
    So, I just received my first red light ticket on Fell and Masonic in San Francisco. It was around 830pm and was pretty dark out, unfortunately i am guilty because i did turn left and didn’t see the red arrow as my friend was giving me directions and waited till the last second to say “oh turn here” and i did so without thinking anything of it as the light was green going straight, and i have never heard of or seen an intersection that had a red light arrow for turning left off of a one-way street. so i was totally surprised when the flashes went off. I am not a resident of sf and haven’t been for over 10years. My question is how is that even legal? it feels very underhanded to place a light in such a manner and is there any chance of getting something like this dismissed I am more than willing to put in the time to fight it even though i now live about 3hrs from sf. Because I feel it is just wrong to put a light to stop someone from turning left off a oneway street. Any information or ideas would be welcome my first court appearance is set for July 13th. The photos are clearly me if you would like to see the videos i will happily send you my citation and pin number. Thanks again.

  36. Hi Roger,
    I just got the ticket in the mail and the photo is clear as day (even though it was taken at night :)). It’s me and I have no excuse. However, from your previous post it sounds like I should go contest anyway and see if I can get a fee reduction. As I said, my last ticket was just under a year ago, so I don’t see how I’d be able to get traffic school again. What kind of defense, if any, do you think I could put forward?

    Thanks!

  37. Amber: I just got a ticket for the same red light arrow at Fell & Masonic. If you come up with anything, let me know!

  38. Mike – From previous posts it is my understanding a guilty plea at arraignment can result in a reduction. Traffic school is an option only if it has been 18 months between dates of infractions. It is within the realm of possibility that the officer could agree to change the violation to a municipal code violation or a vehicle code violation which is a non moving violation such as cvc 21710 – Coasting. It would take convincing the officer of some hardship, such as maybe losing your job for having that point on your license.

    Someone should really take the time to find out about that intersection. Someone must have by now researched what appears to be a poorly engineered situation.

  39. Mike: I would also contact my auto insurance agent and discuss the impact that one point would have on your rates. Your options might be shopping for a different company or reducing coverage, i.e. do you have full coverage on an older car (unnecessary?).
    If it looks like your increase will exceed $1,000 over the next 3 years, it might be worth consulting an atty. Atty Sherry Gendelman of SSF is very good, I hear. Ask her if she has experience getting a change to the citation, among other things.

  40. So I have been reading this thread for a while since I got my redlight ticket back in October 2011. Well at the time I had no money and I went to court in January 2012 and I pleaded not guilty so I was scheduled for another court hearing in June. So I went back and I honestly had no idea what was going to happen. I knew I was completely guilty of running a redlight so I prayed for a miracle and a miracle is what I got. Judge called me up and a cop stood next to me and the cop said, “Jude we would like to plead motion of dismissal” and she shook my hand. I had no idea what that meant so I walked out of the court room and I asked an officer walking by what it meant and he said that “its like it never happen”. Boy was I F*cken happy.

    So my advice to you all, challenge it and hope that you can get away with it. Shoot I did so it might happen to you too. Good luck!

  41. JR: For those who have the time it does not hurt to go to trial (unless it jeopardizes your eligibility for traffic school). There are a few reasons your case may have been dismissed at request of officer. Reasons vary by city.

  42. Snitch Tickets

    The very first thing one should do when receiving a Red Light Camera Ticket is to make sure it is real. Some of the info below relates more to Redflex camera tickets. I don’t believe SF uses snitch tickets but many who visit this site receive tickets from other cities.

    Some towns report as many as a half the tickets they send out are fake. They are not citations filed with the court and CAN BE IGNORED.
    How to tell if your ticket is a fake (snitch) ticket….a. The photos are probably black and white (not true of SF tickets?). b. It does NOT give the address of the Court. (It may even say “do not contact the Court”). And the acid test is it will NOT say “Notice to Appear.”

    For a pretty good description of Real Ticket vs. Snitch Ticket
    http://www.ticketkick.com/snitch-ticket/
    If everyone knew of SNITCH tickets and just ignored them it would reduce the profit and once the profit turns into a loss to cities, they are quick to cancel their camera contracts. Tell family and friends to “NOT be FOOLED.”

  43. Well my friend reported to court and he gave my information to the judge. Basically he said it was not him but me. It has now been 4 months since I ran the red light and I have barely received it in the mail. Isn’t there a time limit in which they must send me the ticket? The response on the ticket is up on two weeks. PLease let me know what or if I can do anything. Thank you.

  44. @ Albert….Just because your friend gave your info to court does not mean that a ticket will be issued in your name. Call the court and ask if there are any citations in your name. If there is no citation and as long as your address is current with DMV, relax until you receive a notice. My guess is that no notice will ever come.

  45. An update on my ticket from last March.

    I received a lessened fine (114 + 55 for traffic school from 480) and traffic school. They don’t seem to be refunding the balance, which is upsetting.

  46. Hi Roger/Aren,

    Thanks for this great blog post. I just received my red light citation for Masonic @Fell, exactly like Amber and Mike. The picture clearly shows my vehicle and my picture so no way to get around that. But as Amber mentioned this intersection is very confusing, you can hardly see the red arrow until you’re right on crossroad and mind you Fell is a busy street. Aside that, you can see in the video that the flash goes off before I cross the intersection – that flash actually distracted me and I’m pretty sure I could have stopped in time if it wasn’t for the flash. In the second flash you can see clearly that I cam to a full stop 5-7 feet into the intersection.

    Bottom line, I’m fine with doing the Trial + Traffic option with the reduced fine given that I did cross the intersection and stopped late (even though clearly this intersection’s camera is just a revenue generating scheme for the city). I just wanted to confirm that that $50 reduced fine + traffic school plea bargain is still an option. Also, do I need to go to court to schedule the court appearance day and on that day ask for the plea and is this done with the judge or the officer?

    Thanks!

  47. @Andrew. Did you file a Trial by Written Declaration? Did you receive the judgement and that the fine was reduced from $480 to $114? The only significant reductions I have seen have occurred when the fine was for being guilty of a lesser offense. Can you look at the paperwork from the court. Does it say you were found guilty of 21453(a) or some other vehicle code. What arguments did you use in your TBWD?

  48. Ron –
    It is my understanding that you do need to go to the courthouse and schedule a hearing date to get the reduced fine option. I’m banking on it myself – I went down there at 8:00 am (office opens at 8:30) waited in line and was out by 9:00. My hearing is September 17th at 6:00 pm so I’ll let you know what happens. I don’t have the traffic school option but I’m going to see if they’ll grant it to me anyway. Plus there’s the slight chance that the case will be thrown out entirely; you just never know. It’s worth a shot to schedule a hearing. But you’re completely right – the flash going off at Masonic/Fell is what confuses you and takes your attention away from looking at any red lights.

  49. Does anyone know If I can use the drop box outside of room 145 st the superior court to drop of the TBD form and bail? I don’t want to wait in line and the SF superior court website lets you print and fill out the TBD forms….

    Thanks!!

  50. Hello,
    I was at the intersection of Mission and 4th st. yesterday making a right turn trying to get to Bryant to get on the freeway, on a motorcycle. I noticed a camera flash when proceeded upon the turn, I was facing directly into the flash. In all honesty, being a out of towner, I had so much going through my mind. I could of swore the light was green and transitioned to yellow while in the turn. I also beleive there was another vehicle present in the left lane behind me.

    Should I be expecting a notice in the mail?? Does downtown SF only take forward facing pictures? Or do they take rear vehicle pictures as well?

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