UPDATE 10/19/2005: 9 months after the ticket, I got the appeal decision in the mail. I won!
Like many cities in California, San Francisco has been using Automated Enforcement Systems (a.k.a. “Red Light Cameras”) at many of its intersections for several years now. Although the stated purpose is (of course) for safety, the real reason is revenue. If you are the unlucky recipient of one of the citations in the mail (as yours truly recently was) then this website is for you. It explains your options and relates my experience with the San Francisco court system.
Your choices:
- The picture isn’t of you. The registered owner is who gets sent the ticket. If the picture is not of you, sign the attached affidavit saying that the picture isn’t of you. Don’t lie — you’re saying under the penalty of purjury that it’s not you in the ticket. DO NOT, however, TELL THEM WHO IS IN THE PICTURE. It’s their job to figure that out, not yours. Don’t rat out your friends and family.
- Pay it. If $371 is worth less to you than a lost morning in court, then just pay the ticket and move on. You may or may not want to do traffic school to keep the points from appearing on your license. While I’ve never done it myself, I hear the on-line version of traffic school is fairly painless.
- Trial + Traffic school. This is probably the best option for most people. Go to the clerk. Post bail (the amount of your ticket) and plead not-guilty.  Get a time for trial. SHOW UP ON TIME. When the court session starts, the clerk will allow you to have your fine reduced to only $50 if you take traffic school (with a $30 fee). For a total of $80, you’re done and the points are not added to your license. NOTE: If you’ve already done traffic school in the past 18 months, you’re not eligible to do it again. Sorry.
- Plead not-guilty. Lots of options here. You can skip the arraignment and demand your right to a speedy trial (within 45 days) by going to the clerk and posting the $371 bond. Sometimes, due to the short notice, the officer isn’t properly subpoenaed and won’t know that he/she needs to testify against you (this happened in my case). If the officer doesn’t appear to testify, your case is dismissed. Or, the officer could already be in court to testify against other people and will realize that she needs to testify against you too, and will testify anyway (yep, this happened to me).Or, you can go to your arraignment and plead not-guilty there. This gives you the chance to make pre-trial motions. This makes the process very drawn-out — expect your trial date to be many months in the future.
Pleading not-guilty
NOTE WELL: This takes a lot of time and will really try your patience. DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN. In fact, you should expect to lose. Sorry, but the trial court for traffic and other infractions in San Francisco assumes GUILT. Moreover, the red light camera systems are considered infallible and therefore beyond reproach. AGAIN, YOU WILL LOSE.
Don’t waste your time
- People often say that with traffic cases you should plead not-guilty and take your chances that the officer won’t show up. (If the officer doesn’t show up, your case is immediately dismissed.) I would agree with this strategy for all non-red light camera tickets. However, from what I can tell, the officers assisting with the red light camera prosecutions do not have normal police “beats”, and instead have a desk job, probably in the same building. This means they have a high liklihood of showing up.
- If you are planning to contend that you don’t run red lights, you are a safe driver, and you’ve never done it before, do not waste your time. (Most murderers haven’t murdered anyone before, either.) You will be found GUILTY. Your fine will be lowered to $300, but they won’t grant you traffic school. You are better off taking the $80 buy-off deal mentioned above.
- If you are planning to contend that the light was really yellow and the camera was wrong or broken, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME. You will be found GUILTY. I promise. Don’t forget the the cameras are considered infallible by the trial court judge. Even if it was broken!
Argue the law
While the cameras themselves might be considered infallible, the city has errored in the way they are set up and operated. You should expect to LOSE at trial even if you object to the evidence on these grounds. HOWEVER, these MAY help you get your ticket overturned in appeal. That’s right, if you want any chance of winning, you will have to APPEAL. This takes a lot of time and energy. If you’re fed up and willing to put in the time it takes to appeal, then go ahead and plead not-guilty. Otherwise, don’t waste your time and take the $80 buy-out deal.
What to do:
- Buy the book Fight Your Ticket in California from Nolo Press. Make sure you get thee one specifically for California.
- Go to the Hall of Justice (850 Bryant St.) with a copy of your citation many weeks before your trial. Parking hint: You can park on 6th street after 9am. so show up at 8:59 and you’ll have all the free parking you want. Otherwise you might have to pay the garages that charge $6 for the first 1/2 hour. Go to the 5th floor, turn right at the hallway, and go to the end. This is the Police Legal department. Tell the friendly officers (really, they have always been very friendly in this office) that you want to fill out an “Informal discovery request”. They will give you a short form. Fill it out, and the City’s “Photo prosecution packet” will be sent to you. This is exactly what they will present at trial, which is always a good thing to have beforehand.
Issues:
(For a good overview of many of these issues, read Highwayrobbery.net).
- The city has not property issued warning tickets as required by 21455.5. CVC (California vehicle code) 21455.5 allows cities to put up Automated Enforcement Systems if they follow the guidelines set forth in the statue. One of the statutes is that “Prior to issuing citations under this section, a local jurisdiction utilizing an automated traffic enforcement system shall commence a program to issue only warning notices for 30 days.” While most cities (I believe San Francisco is included) took this to mean warning tickets only needed to be issued 30 days before the first camera in a city, a recent court ruling in Southern California mandated that EACH camera is succeptible to the 30-day rule. At trial, I suggest asking the prosecution’s witness (the officer) if they issued only warning tickets for the first 30 days of YOUR camera’s operation.
- CVC 21455.5 also has very strict requirement with respect to intersection signage. 21455.5(a) basically says the city has to label an AES-enabled intersection from all sides. There is one exception: if they choose not to label the intersection from all sides, then it can “posts signs at all major entrances to the city, including, at a minimum, freeways, bridges, and state highway routes.” Note that San Francisco DOES NOT post the required signs on major city entrances like bridges, freeways, and state highway routes. Instead, they choose to label major freeway exits. This is not compliant with the letter or the spirit of the law. While some AES-enforced intersections ARE labeled with signage in all direction, many are completely un-labeled meaning the city is falling back on the fact that they think they’ve labeled the “freeways, bridges, and state highway routes”. If you bring this up at trial (as I did) expect to LOSE. By bringing it up at trial, though, you can use it in your appeal.
- Interesting pre-trial motions. Present them at your arraignment. They probably won’t work, but might be useful ammunition during your appeal.
- Try to subpoena the camera’s “source code”. The camera is more than a camera. It’s a computer. You have the right to question your accuser in court. Your accuser is this computer. You should have the right to know exactly how it is programmed. If this motion is granted, you will probably never see the “source code” (it’s a trade secret) and therefore I would expect the prosecution to drop the charges. It’s worth a shot. It will probably help your case if you know how (ie have the credentials) to interpet any “source code” that you might receive.
- The camera is disallowed under California’s “Speed trap” laws. This is a very interesting one, and will take further research. CVC 40801 forbids speed traps in California. “What does this have to do with Red Light Cameras?” you might ask. Well, let me tell you. CVC 40801 says “No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.” CVS 40802 says “A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.” What does this mean to you? Well, the Red Light Computer decided to take a picture of you because you were headed for the intersection at a rate of speed high enough to assume that you were going to go past the ‘stop line’. It knew this because there are coils of wire in the pavement in each lane that are a set distance apart. It calculated your speed by securing the time it takes your vehicle to travel the known distance. Sound familiar? CVC 40801 now says they can’t use this evidence to prosecute you. But they did anyway, and now you have grounds to fight it. I didn’t try this angle, but I have a feeling you’ll LOSE if you do. But I want to hear about how it went, so write to me.
I’d love to hear from you. Write to me at aren /at/ thesandersens dotcom with your experiences.
@Tim —
The law says the front of your car has to be behind the close side of the crosswalk (the stop line) when the light is red. The middle of the crosswalk is not a violation… unless the cameras are set up wrong or not working properly.
Hi Aren,
In regards to Ca Vehicle Code 21455.5 (b) which requires the local jurisdiction to make a public announcement of the automated traffic enforcement system at least 30 days prior to the commencement of the enforcement program.
Do you have any knowledge or insight what constitutes “public announcement”? Are you aware of any cities which have or have not adhered to this code?
Thanks,
Adam
Aren
Thanks.
@Adam —
Great question. Many cities have only announced the installation of the city’s first camera, via tv, radio, and newspapers. There is debate as to whether that’s sufficient, or each camera needs a warning. If you ask SF for the discovery packet, I believe they will tell you how they chose to comply.
Also check Highwayrobbery.net — it goes much more in-depth.
hi!, really good web page. so i got a ticket for jumping a red light. the pictures are extremely blurry (it was kind of drizzling), can i choose “affidavit of non-availability”. Is there an extra fine if they rule its me after they checkout my license and recent photograph? Also can you please elaborate on the Trial + Traffic schol option. I am confused on how its different from Plead not guilty option. For Trial + Traffic, when do i go there and see the clerk?
@Naren — You can try the “affidavit of non-liability,” but if it *is* you then you’re commiting perjury. In theory that could involve jail time if they can prove it. You also have to give up someone else’s name to use it.
For Trial and Traffic school, just go down to the courthouse now and wait in line to talk to the clerk. Plead not-guilty with the clerk, and get a Trial date. At trial, they will probably offer the traffic school option.
Thanks Aren!
So I went to the clerks office today and told the guy behind the counter that I want a trial date. He told me I have two options.
1. Post the bail and get a trial date.
2. Dont post the bail and go to the court two times. Once for arraignment and second time for trial ..or something like that.
So I took option 1 and posted the bail. He gave me a receipt and a court date.
Did i pick the correct option? What are my next steps?
The citation I got through the mail said I could make an appointment to check out the pictures so I asked the clerk before I was leaving about where I could do that. He told me I can check them online and when i replied that they are not clear, he said its the same pictures they are going to show and I might have a chance of winning because the picture isnt clear. All this took less than 30 minutes, even though the “Smart Parking” garage guy was trying to rip me off 10$ by telling me it was 32 minutes. I almost paid and when I checked the time on the ticket and his machine it was just under 30 minutes. I paid him 5$ for the half hour. What a jerk.
Hi I got a red light ticket in california and was wondering how to go about it. I am going to go to court to see if they can lower my bail amount but was wondering do all courts lower ur bail and give you traffic school if u ask. I think 500 bucks is way to much even though I am guilty. Can u help me need the bail to be reduced and I may need traffic school.
@Naren — Yep, you did the right thing. Your court date is a Trial. Go to trial — BE ON TIME. They will probably offer the whole room of defendents a deal before the judge appears… you have to decide whether you are going to take their deal (probably a very reduced fine if you do traffic school) or forgo that deal and argue the pictures just aren’t clear enough to convict you. Please report back afterwards — would like to know what your experience was.
@Bethany — Every court is different. Most will lower bail for you when you appear before a Judge, though.
Is offering a deal pretty common? I am kind of paranoid because the clerk said i gave my right to traffic school by asking a trial date. i would be more than glad to take a reduced fine. from highwayrobbery.net i learnt that i could ask the judge if he was sure it was me from the pictures without agreeing to testify.
and yeah, i will post back on what i had to ..after the trial.
@Naren — Offering a deal before the trial starts is common. Once you’re at trial, the judge probably won’t let you do traffic school. If you lose, you’ll probably get a lower fine, but that’s it.
You can say the photos aren’t clear, etc., without taking the stand. If anyone asks if it’s you in the photo, you can say that per your 5th amendment right, you’re not going to testify.
Hello,
I just went through red light. I don’t have a front plate. does it take a picture of the back plate? The light changed so fast!
Thanks,
JP
@JP: What city/intersection? If San Francisco, then probably not — most of the cameras in SF only take pictures from the front.
I got a camera red light ticket tonight at the intersection of ofarrel and franklin. it was yellow almost red when i was turning and i did see two flashes of light from the camera on the street corner.
if i do get a ticket, can u simplify for me what i need to do? i know uve explained the trial and traffic school option, but can even simplify it a bit more to me? what im getting is that i when i do get my citation or ticket, i go to the clerk and post bail (what does this mean?) and plead not guilty. and then u mentioned getting a time for the trial. will the trial be on the same day u show up to plead not guilty and post bail? AND who or what tells you when to go to the clerk to plead guilty?
im new to this so it’s kinda confusing for me.
thank you for this helpful site.
hi aren
i just read ur exchange with naren and that answered my questions.
a new question, however, is, how sure is it that they will offer a deal before trial starts? cos if they don’t offer a deal and the trial will start, what should one do now if they want the traffic school option?
Hi Aren,
Do you have any information or insights about getting a traffic violation for making a (legal) right turn on red? The violation code is VC21453A and the description says “Fail to Stop at Red Signal.” The photos show my car at the crosswalk and then making the right turn. The red second says “0.4”
I believe I went into the turn on yellow and the light turned midway. Has anyone experience a similar situation? Also, are they still offering a deal before the trial in SF?
hi Aren,
I saw a flash while crossing the intersection and I think I got caught by the camera, how long does it take for me to receive the ticket? how much is the fine now?
@MIKE94118 — I can’t say for sure they still offer the deal; haven’t had anyone confirm it lately. Chances are they still do, though. If trial starts and they didn’t offer it, you can ask the judge for it as soon as your trial starts and hope they honor your request.
@Hal — The camera thinks you went into the intersection .4 seconds after the light turned red. Tough to fight that one.
@Alvin913 — The fine is around $480 I think. The ticket has to arrive within 15 days.
i recently rolled through a stop light making a right turn and they caught me on camera.
my ticket is about $446 and i was wondering the best way to try and get the fine reduced. should i just plead guilty? or try and fight it ?
I was at Doyle drive this morning right where it turns into Lombard and I thought I saw the light turn green and went ahead. Then I saw the camera lights flashing and realized that the green light I saw was for the intersection in front of me not mine which was still Red. The distance between the intersections is so short that it is easy to be mistaken.
I went to work and the first 2 people I spoke to said they’ve both gotten tickets at the same spot for the same reason. I wasn’t in a rush at all this morning and thought I was obeying the law. It just doesn’t feel fair. Do I have any recourse?
hi aren,
thanks for the info, so if the ticekt does not arrive after 15 days, is it safe to say i did not get a ticket? i’ve asked some people and they said they had camera flashes too by geary and 12th avenue/presidio, and they never received a ticket in the mail. so it’s possible that they don’t issue these tickets to everyone depending on what the camera sees?
@Kathleen — the best way to get the fine reduced the most is to follow my trial + traffic school suggestiom.
@Lenny — I’d recommend trial + traffic school. Arguing to the judge that the intersection is confusing (while true, from your description) will unlikely cause the dismissal of the ticket. I would suggest you follow up with the city on the safety of that intersection, though — sounds like a death waiting to happen.
@Mike — legally the city has 15 days to deliver the ticket via mail. If you don’t have one after 21 days, I think you’re off the hook. They definitely do not issue all violations — an officer reviews them and if they can’t see the driver well (or other circumstances) they won’t issue the ticket.
My husband just got notification for turning right after the light has turned red in SF. It was a legal right turn, but may have been a “rolling stop”. With pictures it is hard to tell. There are a couple things that I noticed about the citation. Should we fight it (Note- He received a true running red light ticket a few months ago in San Mateo and we already did traffic school for that). The ticket is $446.
1) The picture is fuzzy. I can tell it is him because I know how he sits in the truck.
2) There is no date on the Must respond to the court on or before date.
3) I can not find the intersection of NB Park presidio Blvd (Rt 1) @ Lake St on google maps. I am not sure how to get back there to take a look at the intersection to make sure it did not have a no turn on red sign- Would it say that on the citation?
@Nicole: The intersection is Park Presidio Blvd @ Lake Street. (NB) means he was travelling northbound on Park Presidio. Look at the 2nd image in the picture. It will say V=(some number). What does it say? That’s the speed he was going when the light was red; the city will use that as evidence to argue that he didn’t stop before making a right-hand turn on red. The no “respond to court” date is interesting… look at CVC 40518, it requires that the “time and place when, and where, the person may appear in court” be included on the letter you were sent. If it’s not there, you have reason to ask for dismissal (not that you’ll be granted it, but it’s an interesting strategy).
Aren,
it’s me again. I finally got the red light ticket today. the picture is very fuzzy blurry. (do u the want the code to review the picture online?) I asked around and got different opinions. some told me that i can tell the judge that i wasn’t the driver but since I am the car owner, I still have to pay for the ticket. (if i say i wasn’t the driver, would the judge ask me who was it?) some just told me that I should just go to the traffic school to avoid all the trouble. What should I do man? and my ticket doesn’t have the date for the “respond to court”, what does that mean?
@Alvin — first, I don’t recommend lying under oath. You don’t have to testify… if the judge asks you if it was you, who it was, etc., you can maintain your right to not testify. Or you can say you’re not sure that it’s you, if that’s the case. These are moving violations. Only the driver would be responsible for paying. The car owner is not.
I can’t tell you what to do. This blog outlines a lot of your options. If it were me, though, and there really was no ‘respond to court’ date filled out on the form (and they didn’t mention a date elsewhere), I’d just ignore the whole thing (save the ticket, though, you’ll probably need it later). It’s a big gamble though.
Aren:
Infomative site. Thanks. I wonder if your car has no front license plate, does the camera photograph the rear of the car or just front grill and driver?
As far as I know, the cameras in San Francisco only take photos from the front. So without a front plate, you’re not going to get a red light camera ticket. (Though you might get a “parking” ticket for not having one.)
Cameras in other cities nearby take photos and video from both the front and rear.
Hi, Feb 27 Sat around 2 am going home on Van ness and Bush. I completely stop at the red light, but i was looking down at my car’s dashboard green clock and thought the light turn green and hit the gas pedal. I back tracked and realize my mistake and stop in the middle section of van ness/bush for about 10 seconds, realizing what i did wrong. I think i didn’t see any flashes.How long you have to be sweat it out until i might get a ticket? how many days or week?
@hippo: If you don’t get a ticket in the mail after 3 weeks, you’re probably not going to get one.
Hi, I was recently in SF and while driving southbound on Van Ness I saw a flash. It was mounted on a pole somewhere between Turk and Hayes. Are they new photo radars or was it something else?
@Bruno — as far as I know, there are no cameras on that stretch. The buses’ connections to the overhead wires sometimes cause sparks which flash brightly, which might explain it unless there’s a new camera installation.
Great service you are providing! Lots of info on the Red Light Photo issue info, I hope I don’t have one of those coming. I did receive a “parking violation” for violation VC 22526 A (listed as blocking an intersection) described as refusing to turn. I was in SF 2 weeks ago and a guy in a blue shirt with a sheriff’s star (the kind my children got at county fairs) pointed me to turn right on 6th from Market and my destination required a right turn on 4th, a one way to the right. I was not in a Right Turn Only Lane. I have learned there is a new “Market Street Pilot” making vehicles turn at various places. Any suggestions on this one? Thanks.
I got a ticket for a rolling stop while turning right in SSF – Westborough and El Camino. The city has already issued refunds to 7,000 because the city council did not ratify the contract with the camera co. I did not fall in that time frame. There is another argument that the city has to give warnings for 30 days and that would be me. Do you think that is a valid case? Thanks for your input.
hi, i have a ticket in january, how many times i have to pay it please, thanks
@Fran — no experience with that one. Is it a parking citation or moving violation?
@Cindy — Yes, it’s a very valid case if the city in fact did not issue warning citations for 30 days.
@Brice — Where was the ticket, and what was it for?
it was a red light ticket in SF, thanks
Hi aren,
I was making a left on the chestnut intersection in south city. I stopped behind the line because it was red, but when it turned green, I started going but the cameras flashed. Will I get a ticket ?
Brice — the notice they sent you in the mail will have the “must respond by” date on it. Be sure to appear on or before that date.
Kyle — hard to say. Wait 20 days, and see if you have a ticket in the mail. If so, check back here and let’s see what their evidence claims.
Hi Aren,
I just got a redlight photo taken on Bush and Van Ness in SF, but I have a nose bra on my car and therefore no visible front plate. Do you know if that camera takes rear plate photos? Do you think I’ll be receiving a ticket in the mail for this?
thanks,
Sandra
@Sandra — I don’t think any cameras in SF take photos of the rear license plate, so you probably won’t get a ticket.
Hi Aren,
I was on the Lake and Park presidio intersection going east. I stopped and was waiting for a light to turn green. When the light turned green, i drove into the intersection so that i could make a left turn onto northbound park presidio. I was almost complete with my turn when I saw flashes from behind me. Does this mean i will be getting a ticket?
Nicole
@Nicole — From your description, I don’t believe so. You’ll know for sure in a few weeks!
Just an update on my Feb 4th post – I never got a ticket in the mail – Proof that God exists.
Knowledge is power. I appreciate this information and feel better about the $450+ ticket that will inevitably be in my mailbox in a couple weeks. I was heading west bound on Harrison @ 8th (nasty little intersection) and saw a *flash* while I was blatantly in the intersection after the light turned red. I plan on using the trial + traffic school option. I hope that option is still viable and that it plays out in the way described above. Has anyone has a recent experience? Was the fine really lowered to $50 + $30? Also, what does “posting bail” mean? Do I pay the original fee and then get it lowered later?
“Posting bail” means exactly what you said: you pay your fine in full, then get money back later. I haven’t heard an update from anyone in a while, but I have no reason to think the trial + traffic school deal has changed significantly. Please let me know your experience.
Hmmm, read somewhere “posting bail” is 10% of the amount due. Is that not the case here? Thanks!
hi. i was driving my employers car. it was around noon and i was northbound on franklin about to cross geary and thought i could clear the yellow but got nailed with two flashes while driving through the middle of the intersection. if a ticket is processed it will go to my boss. what are his options? can he say it wasn’t him driving (which will be obvious from the picture) and get it dismissed? will they require him to reveal who it was in for dismissal? any advice would be great. thanks.