UPDATE 10/19/2005: 9 months after the ticket, I got the appeal decision in the mail. I won!
Like many cities in California, San Francisco has been using Automated Enforcement Systems (a.k.a. “Red Light Cameras”) at many of its intersections for several years now. Although the stated purpose is (of course) for safety, the real reason is revenue. If you are the unlucky recipient of one of the citations in the mail (as yours truly recently was) then this website is for you. It explains your options and relates my experience with the San Francisco court system.
Your choices:
- The picture isn’t of you. The registered owner is who gets sent the ticket. If the picture is not of you, sign the attached affidavit saying that the picture isn’t of you. Don’t lie — you’re saying under the penalty of purjury that it’s not you in the ticket. DO NOT, however, TELL THEM WHO IS IN THE PICTURE. It’s their job to figure that out, not yours. Don’t rat out your friends and family.
- Pay it. If $371 is worth less to you than a lost morning in court, then just pay the ticket and move on. You may or may not want to do traffic school to keep the points from appearing on your license. While I’ve never done it myself, I hear the on-line version of traffic school is fairly painless.
- Trial + Traffic school. This is probably the best option for most people. Go to the clerk. Post bail (the amount of your ticket) and plead not-guilty.  Get a time for trial. SHOW UP ON TIME. When the court session starts, the clerk will allow you to have your fine reduced to only $50 if you take traffic school (with a $30 fee). For a total of $80, you’re done and the points are not added to your license. NOTE: If you’ve already done traffic school in the past 18 months, you’re not eligible to do it again. Sorry.
- Plead not-guilty. Lots of options here. You can skip the arraignment and demand your right to a speedy trial (within 45 days) by going to the clerk and posting the $371 bond. Sometimes, due to the short notice, the officer isn’t properly subpoenaed and won’t know that he/she needs to testify against you (this happened in my case). If the officer doesn’t appear to testify, your case is dismissed. Or, the officer could already be in court to testify against other people and will realize that she needs to testify against you too, and will testify anyway (yep, this happened to me).Or, you can go to your arraignment and plead not-guilty there. This gives you the chance to make pre-trial motions. This makes the process very drawn-out — expect your trial date to be many months in the future.
Pleading not-guilty
NOTE WELL: This takes a lot of time and will really try your patience. DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN. In fact, you should expect to lose. Sorry, but the trial court for traffic and other infractions in San Francisco assumes GUILT. Moreover, the red light camera systems are considered infallible and therefore beyond reproach. AGAIN, YOU WILL LOSE.
Don’t waste your time
- People often say that with traffic cases you should plead not-guilty and take your chances that the officer won’t show up. (If the officer doesn’t show up, your case is immediately dismissed.) I would agree with this strategy for all non-red light camera tickets. However, from what I can tell, the officers assisting with the red light camera prosecutions do not have normal police “beats”, and instead have a desk job, probably in the same building. This means they have a high liklihood of showing up.
- If you are planning to contend that you don’t run red lights, you are a safe driver, and you’ve never done it before, do not waste your time. (Most murderers haven’t murdered anyone before, either.) You will be found GUILTY. Your fine will be lowered to $300, but they won’t grant you traffic school. You are better off taking the $80 buy-off deal mentioned above.
- If you are planning to contend that the light was really yellow and the camera was wrong or broken, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME. You will be found GUILTY. I promise. Don’t forget the the cameras are considered infallible by the trial court judge. Even if it was broken!
Argue the law
While the cameras themselves might be considered infallible, the city has errored in the way they are set up and operated. You should expect to LOSE at trial even if you object to the evidence on these grounds. HOWEVER, these MAY help you get your ticket overturned in appeal. That’s right, if you want any chance of winning, you will have to APPEAL. This takes a lot of time and energy. If you’re fed up and willing to put in the time it takes to appeal, then go ahead and plead not-guilty. Otherwise, don’t waste your time and take the $80 buy-out deal.
What to do:
- Buy the book Fight Your Ticket in California from Nolo Press. Make sure you get thee one specifically for California.
- Go to the Hall of Justice (850 Bryant St.) with a copy of your citation many weeks before your trial. Parking hint: You can park on 6th street after 9am. so show up at 8:59 and you’ll have all the free parking you want. Otherwise you might have to pay the garages that charge $6 for the first 1/2 hour. Go to the 5th floor, turn right at the hallway, and go to the end. This is the Police Legal department. Tell the friendly officers (really, they have always been very friendly in this office) that you want to fill out an “Informal discovery request”. They will give you a short form. Fill it out, and the City’s “Photo prosecution packet” will be sent to you. This is exactly what they will present at trial, which is always a good thing to have beforehand.
Issues:
(For a good overview of many of these issues, read Highwayrobbery.net).
- The city has not property issued warning tickets as required by 21455.5. CVC (California vehicle code) 21455.5 allows cities to put up Automated Enforcement Systems if they follow the guidelines set forth in the statue. One of the statutes is that “Prior to issuing citations under this section, a local jurisdiction utilizing an automated traffic enforcement system shall commence a program to issue only warning notices for 30 days.” While most cities (I believe San Francisco is included) took this to mean warning tickets only needed to be issued 30 days before the first camera in a city, a recent court ruling in Southern California mandated that EACH camera is succeptible to the 30-day rule. At trial, I suggest asking the prosecution’s witness (the officer) if they issued only warning tickets for the first 30 days of YOUR camera’s operation.
- CVC 21455.5 also has very strict requirement with respect to intersection signage. 21455.5(a) basically says the city has to label an AES-enabled intersection from all sides. There is one exception: if they choose not to label the intersection from all sides, then it can “posts signs at all major entrances to the city, including, at a minimum, freeways, bridges, and state highway routes.” Note that San Francisco DOES NOT post the required signs on major city entrances like bridges, freeways, and state highway routes. Instead, they choose to label major freeway exits. This is not compliant with the letter or the spirit of the law. While some AES-enforced intersections ARE labeled with signage in all direction, many are completely un-labeled meaning the city is falling back on the fact that they think they’ve labeled the “freeways, bridges, and state highway routes”. If you bring this up at trial (as I did) expect to LOSE. By bringing it up at trial, though, you can use it in your appeal.
- Interesting pre-trial motions. Present them at your arraignment. They probably won’t work, but might be useful ammunition during your appeal.
- Try to subpoena the camera’s “source code”. The camera is more than a camera. It’s a computer. You have the right to question your accuser in court. Your accuser is this computer. You should have the right to know exactly how it is programmed. If this motion is granted, you will probably never see the “source code” (it’s a trade secret) and therefore I would expect the prosecution to drop the charges. It’s worth a shot. It will probably help your case if you know how (ie have the credentials) to interpet any “source code” that you might receive.
- The camera is disallowed under California’s “Speed trap” laws. This is a very interesting one, and will take further research. CVC 40801 forbids speed traps in California. “What does this have to do with Red Light Cameras?” you might ask. Well, let me tell you. CVC 40801 says “No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.” CVS 40802 says “A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.” What does this mean to you? Well, the Red Light Computer decided to take a picture of you because you were headed for the intersection at a rate of speed high enough to assume that you were going to go past the ‘stop line’. It knew this because there are coils of wire in the pavement in each lane that are a set distance apart. It calculated your speed by securing the time it takes your vehicle to travel the known distance. Sound familiar? CVC 40801 now says they can’t use this evidence to prosecute you. But they did anyway, and now you have grounds to fight it. I didn’t try this angle, but I have a feeling you’ll LOSE if you do. But I want to hear about how it went, so write to me.
I’d love to hear from you. Write to me at aren /at/ thesandersens dotcom with your experiences.
Please help!
I got a red light camera ticket recently in Fremont.
It was a right turn roll over. And the left turn from the other road is
green arrow protected. So in principle, I am sure there will be no danger.
And I checked the speed, it is about 10 miles per hour.
I did not make a full stop.
But I feel very sad if I have to pay almost $500.
Any advice? I want to go to the court.
Not sure what the result would be.
BTW, I never had traffic ticket before.
Thanks!
Tony: I know Fremont. It would help to know at which of 3 intersections in Fremont you were cited. Also, what is the “late time” Look at the data bar at top of photo #1. Date of violation was when? You can email me. If you plead Not Guilty your trial date will be 12 months from now. The law could change by then. The Supreme Court issued a ruling last week which may impact how camera cases are prosecuted. If you are willing to do 40 hours of community service if found guilty, there are some do’s and don’ts you should know about, also.
rlouisj@aol.com
Roger
Intersections in Fremont which cite right turners are:
Stevenson & Blacow
Mission & Mohave – yellow light extended in Nov. 2010; cites lefts also
Automall & Fremont
Other “high value” cameras in Fremont are:
Mowry and Fremont (cites lefts, too)
Mowry & Farwell
Paseo Padre & Decoto
In Newark, virtually all (over90%) of tickets are for right turns:
Mowry W/B turning right onto Cedar
Cedar Blvd (N/B) turning right onto Mowry (#1 camera)
Newark Blvd S/B turning right onto Jarvis (#2 camera)
Help!
I have court tomorrow am in SF for running a red light @ 1st & Folsom.
I never got any pictures or info on where (which intersection) it occurred at.
Also, the notice was sent to my old address (1 apartment away). I went to the clerk’s office yesterday & asked for & received the black & white 4 photos which are blurry.
Can I claim the evidence is untrustworthy or unreliable due to SF’s revenue-generating contract with camera co? Can I claim violation of due process bc lack of notice or real color photos? Can I claim unconstitutional enforcement due to motorcycles & cars lacking front plates that also run red lights are being treated disproportionately as these ppl don’t get tickets & therefore are not applying the law equally? Any info on the evidence/hearsay/other recent rulings????
Thanks!!
Hello!
At East of Millbrae Ave., I was the 2nd car waiting to make a left turn into Rollins Rd. (Heading to In & Out Burgers). When the lights turned green (For Left Turns and vehicles going straight the intersection) I was almost out of the intersection going into Rollins Rd., the cameras started flashing from many corners.
Are the cameras malfunctioning?
@ sean…where you able to fight this using the facts that you stated…and are you sure that the cameras don’t take pictures from behind in san francisco? I just got flashed while crossing the intersection I believe on fremont street to get onto the the bay bridge. The time I crossed into it the light was yellow but turned red half way through. I also don’t have a front plate because it came off last week in the car wash. So I’m not even sure if I will even be getting the ticket. Any input would help..thanks!
If anyone else has some current info about the rear facing cameras on that street…please let me know. I would check my self but I was visiting from sacramento
@Sean. Sean said he plead Not Guilty and goes to trial in Sept. He has not seen photos. I suggest going to the police station to see any photos and video. Try to get a copy in advance of trial. If nothing else, determine whether you were driving and if photo is clear enough to prosecute (reasonable doubt).
@Sammiegrl – Aren and others say SF photographs the front plate. I certainly wouldn’t worry until you get a ticket in the mail.
hey guys. okay so I was preceeding through a light and right when i crossed the first line in the cross walk it turned yellow so I started to proceed and then when i was on the opposite side of the cross walk where i was basically out i looked up and saw it turn red. There was no flash of lights. Will I get a ticket?
Basically I was out of the light and when i looked up when i was basically out it was yellow and then red. no flashes at all.
I just received a red light violation dated 11/7/2010 , the post mark on the envelope is July 1st 2011. That is nearly 9 months… Please tell me there is a limit on the amount of time from violation to receiving the ticket.. thanks!
Nick, It sounds like the original ticket went to owner of vehicle and the owner ‘snitched’ you out. Need more detail.
Nick – Editor of website highwayrobbery.net says ticket can be reissued in your name if done within one year. You should read Defect #8 on his website. You may be able to demur to the citation.
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/indexExpanded.htm#Def8
Hey its been 24 days since I saw the flashes and I still haven’t received anything. Do u think I’m off the hook?
Danny – Ticket must be mailed to registered owner in Calif within 11 days. Were you the registered owner?
Need help with a red light camera ticket issued in Fremont CA? How about at Automall Pkwy (Parkway) and Fremont Blvd.??? In early 2010 red light camera activations went way down. WAY…WAY…DOWN. To as few as 30 in one month. Then suddenly, they went back up to 600 and 700 in one month’s time. Since then the activations have resumed their normal pace at around 330 per month. So what happened during that 3 or 4 month period? No one knows. The Fremont Police Dept does not. Nor does Redflex apparently since there is no communication between the two concerning the matter. The officer who issues the citations has not noticed any aberrations. No one has ever notified him of any maintenance issues or any issues regarding calibration or performance. Sounds to me a defendant could “make a lot of hay” when asking the cop some questions about how reliable the camera data is. Let me know if you need to know more.
rlouisj@aol.com
Hello!
I was driving in downtown San Francisco recently, I just got a used car and ran a red light on Mission and 5th intersection at about 1 pm , I have no front plate and rear plate but a little temporary license sticker on the passenger side of windshield, Is it possible that the red light camera can see that much detail on that license? It has been 16 days since it happened, when can I start breath a little bit easier? I appreciate any help from anybody!!
Richard. Breathe easy. Camera cannot read VIN no. on temp. sticker.
Thanks Roger!
But there is a 8 digit number on my temporary sticker which is readable I guess… what is that number? is that the temporary license number?
Richard – I don’t know
Hello
I got a ticket from Los Angeles County. They tried to cancel the red camera enforcement program until July 31st. I got a ticket on May 24th but I must pay it before July 25th. Is it possible to waive my ticket after July 31st ?
Hi, I ran a red light last month in San Fransisco Click” I heard the camera and yes I recieved a ticket in the mail, though the tickek was issued to my 17 year old son. The truck is regestered to me though we have the same name. I sugested he fill out this is not section of the ticket and not name the driver in the blurred picture. Will they reissue the ticket? maybe it will go away? at the Highwayrobberey.net site it mentions this maybe grounds for dismissal. Any imput, thanks for all the help. Ron
I thinkg i saw the flash while i was driving at SF downtown on 7/14/2011… how long you think the ticket will arrive? is there any way to reduce the fee? I got a red light violation ticket in augest 2009. am i still eligible for the traffic school?
Ron G: It seems obvious that if you or your son mail back the ticket and say it is not me….the police will look up other registered drivers at the address and just reissue the ticket. Better to go to Arraignment and ask the judge to dismiss based on the fact the photo in the camera does not resemble the person to whom the ticket was issued. Judge should dismiss. This will not allow the police an opportunity to reissue the ticket in the driver’s name.
Meow: Traffic school is available if there has been an 18 month period between citations for which traffic school has been completed. Camera tickets need to be mailed in eleven days; received in 15 days since date of violation, or thereabouts. Relax for now. The ticket may be mailed to registered owner. Is that you?
I have a question, Since when does the camera flash on a yellow light?
I was coming to a stop light wanting to make a right turn on a green light.
But, no sooner as I got closer the green light turned to yellow. I stopped but apparently not well enough. When I did fully stop I was a bit over the line. I backed up, no cars were behind me. The light was “YELLOW”. The camera flashed twice? Any infor or advice?
Please see Los Angeles article from 07-27-2011 at this link, :
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0727-red-light-cameras-20110727,0,83963,full.story
Don’t suppose there is some implication for the SF red light program..?
Hi – I received a ticket as well, it says red light enforcement program. It does not give any details on where it happened and has no picture. Does this mean they didn’t really get a good picture. It does give the option to send them a copy of my dl and the person who was driving the car. What’s the best way to deal with this, please help. $480 ticket, I don’t even remember being flashed!! No idea where this might have happened.
By the way with regards to my previous post, what I received is a courtesy warning notice, should I be expecting something in addition to this?
Hi there! I got a red light violation at Hayes and Polk in SF. The Speed Limit was 25 and I was doing 27 because I hate driving in SF and I always try to be very careful. The light was green, I turned my head to check what street I was crossing and then proceeded forward at 27 mph. The Yellow time was 3.4 and Red Time was 0.3. I was 12 feet behind the line when the light turned red, which did not even give me time to react before the deed was done (assuming a reaction time of .75 seconds). Does any of this matter for the courts or do they consider all red times to be created equal? It seems really unfair to have to pay $480 +$50 for the right to take traffic school plus traffic school for such a thin margin. If I had been going 30 MPH, I wouldn’t have gotten a ticket! What would you suggest I do? Pay up and lick my wounds or try for a trial by written declaration? Thanks!!
Mona G. You did not say whether you received a ticket or not. If you did not received a ticket – don’t worry. If the car is registered to someone else, have them contact you if he or she received a ticket. They don’t need to snitch you out. Seek advice on what to do.
Nitin: It is hard to say what is going on. Contact either editor of highwayrobbery.net and fax him a copy of ticket. Or fax to me…
rlouisj@aol.com. Sounds like a fake ticket
Lisa: If picture is clearly you – you may be going down for the full count. Many say the picture is clearly them because they know it IS them. You may be the worst judge of the matter, however. If there is no defense to ID (beyond reasonable doubt), it could boil down to how the particular court deals with marginal infractions like .3 seconds late. I don’t know about SF courts. It may not hurt to plea Not Guilty and use the extra time before the court date to either save up to pay the fine or do further research. You can always change your plea and pay the fine without going back to court.
Roger – Thanks for the reply.
I called the SF court and it seems it is a legit ticket, though I haven’t received the actual ticket even now. In the courtesy notice they have given me until 8/10/2011 to pay up, but they haven’t sent me a ticket or the pictures. How am I supposed to know if it’s really me!? I am going out the country 8/5/2011, so I would have to figure this out by then, they are basically forcing you to go to the court house, trying to make it so inconvenient that you will have no other option but to pay.
If I go to the courthouse and check the pictures, if it does not look like me (though they got my numbers right), what are my options?
Thanks!
Hi- I was going home to the Peninsula after lunch with my daughter. We were on the intersection of Oak and Octavia. I was eastbound on Oak in the middle lane to go straight. Cars on my right are making right turns for the freeway entrance. We all had the red lights. Then “right only” arrow turned green for the cars making the right turn. I also thought I had the green light, so I moved forward. Then I realized the northbound cars from Octavia had the green arrow to make left turn to Oak and I actually had a red light. I suddenly stopped in the middle of the intersection. After 2 sec, about 3 camera flashes fired off. After the camera flashes stopped, I safely made a right turn to Octavia towards the freeway. Was that a moving violation, eventhough I technically I didn’t run a red light nor overspeed at an intersection? I’m worried because I really cannot afford the expensive fine especially when I didn’t run a red light.
Thanks for your time.
@Richie — if you entered the intersection on red, you did run a red light. I’m also confused by your description — you were in the lane of traffic designated for straight-ahead, but then ended up making a right turn?
Thanks Aren for your reply. I made the right turn because I thought it was the safer thing to do than to sit idle in the middle of the intersection. I made the turn after all the cars making right only turn for the freeway had cleared. What is my chances of getting a citation and outrageous fee? How would you handle this if it were you in this predicament? (I’m not qualified for traffic school.)
Thanks again.
Hi
I received a ticket with four pictures running red light at Van Ness and Bush St. I was not driving the car at the time and the picture definitely is not mine, but i was on the passenger seat when this happened although the picture is blurred I am sure they will be able to identify me after they receive my picture when I fill out the affidavit of non-liability.
Thus, My question would be can they force me to give out the identification of the person driving assuming I know the driver since i was in the passenger seat?
On the instruction Sheet it says “please fill out the iDENTIFICATION OF THE DRIVER BY REGISTERED OWNER from the back of the the Notice completely” further it mentions providing this information will not result in the automatic dismissal of the citation. If the information is not accurate, the citation will remain on your name.
Shall i just leave that place Empty and mail it back or what do you recommend. any suggestion would be helpful.
Thank you for ruuning such a forum.
Aavas
@Aavas: It may not be a real ticket. A REAL ticket will give the court’s address and say to contact the court. A FAKE ticket will not say that. A REAL ticket will say “Notice to Appear.” A fake ticket usually has black and white photos. A real ticket should have color photos. Do not mail the ticket back or “nominate” (snitch out) the driver without reading this and other material on the same website: http://highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsticket.htm
Hi,
I am a new driver and get so upset by the red light cameras.
First, is it a red light camera in Oak and Octavia street??
Today i was there in the second line which is for go straight, by the time, i stopped in the red light. then, i want to make a right turn so i tried to cross to the right line when it’s able to turn right but not go straight. i crossed the whit line but still unable to make a turn. so i stopped in the intersection when it’s still red light for go straight line. will I get the ticket by my situation??
tHANKS
@Jessica …To trigger the cameras one must be traveling at about 15 mph or faster when crossing over the embedded loops which are usually about 11 feet in back of the limit line. I can’t tell from your description what you did. If a ticket is generated it will be mailed to the address of the registered owner of the vehicle. Wait 15 days.
Dazed & Confuzed
I just received an “Automated Enforcement Traffic Violatoin” in the mail. It’s me..and my car – but I don’t recall running a red light. There is only a photo of the light in the opposite direction and it is green. It’s one of those lights that have an additional turn arrow light at the bottom of the standard red, yellow, green. The first photo is green and I don’t see any color/arrow in the bottom light. In the second photo, I can see that the bottom arrow is lit.
How is this proof I ran a red light? BTW – the dazed is the $480 ‘bail’ amount. They can’t be serious. That’s way more than I can afford. Please help clarify.
@Roger
Thank you for replying. as your explanation, i guess i didnt trigger the camera then. but still wait 15 day to breath easier. Thank you. wish me luck!!
@Aavas….where any of those pictures taken of the back of your vehicle? I was wondering since I had been flashed on the first of july but I didn’t have a front plate. I still haven’t received a ticket?
@Tina…a picture is worth a thousand words. You may have a “snitch” ticket in hand. Any chance you can email me?
Roger rlouisj@aol.com
If you just received a red light camera ticket in Alameda County while making a right turn, I may have some good news for you. Let me know.
To All SF ticketed offenders…I was looking at a SF citation on line and the still photo shows as usual the suspect car at the limit line in one photo and the car about 25 feet past the limit line the 2nd photo. The data bar indicates a late entry by 0.4 seconds (photo #1) and shows the car having proceeded roughly 25 feet in the next .67 seconds (roughly 25 mph). The only signal light visible in photos is a green light for the oncoming traffic. There is no image of a red circular light facing the driver.
My question is without any photo of the red light, how does this evidence stand up in court. I don’t see any mention in this blog of contesting the fact that there is no evidence of a red light. The only evidence is that there is a data bar which presumes to say that there was a red light.
I imagine there must have been many who have brought this up and all such defenses have been to no avail. Are all traffic commissioners/judges totally accepting of the data bar evidence and whatever maintenance logs the police may have to claim the accuracy of their evidence? I am puzzled at how a system which photographs from the front of vehicles can be used as evidence?
HI,
Just received a red light camera ticket today . I did not make full stop while I was make the right turn from WB Mowry to cedar.
THe ticket come with 4 pictures. The first two pics showed the cars on cedar were making left turn, while I yield right with 17 MPH, which I believe it is not accurate. Any way, I admit that I did not full stop.
Any suggestions?
Once again, I have good news for those ticketed for turning right on red in Alameda County. Contact me. rlouisj@aol.com
Do not wait until the last minute or I may not be able to help you.
I too have been caught doing the rolling right in Redwood City @ Veterans turning on Whipple. I didnt realize like a lot of others that this was illegal and only went becasue the road was empty @11pm. The worst part 2 seconds after I turned the light turned green.
Any chance that if I request a trial the law will change for the citation amount for rolling right red light offenses? I know our old Gov. vetoed a bill to lower the fine, any chance a new bill will be passed? $500 doesnt seem fair in this instance and cant believe running through an intersection and turning right are considered the same.