San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets

UPDATE 10/19/2005: 9 months after the ticket, I got the appeal decision in the mail. I won!

Like many cities in California, San Francisco has been using Automated Enforcement Systems (a.k.a. “Red Light Cameras”) at many of its intersections for several years now. Although the stated purpose is (of course) for safety, the real reason is revenue. If you are the unlucky recipient of one of the citations in the mail (as yours truly recently was) then this website is for you. It explains your options and relates my experience with the San Francisco court system.

Your choices:

  • The picture isn’t of you. The registered owner is who gets sent the ticket. If the picture is not of you, sign the attached affidavit saying that the picture isn’t of you. Don’t lie — you’re saying under the penalty of purjury that it’s not you in the ticket. DO NOT, however, TELL THEM WHO IS IN THE PICTURE. It’s their job to figure that out, not yours. Don’t rat out your friends and family.
  • Pay it. If $371 is worth less to you than a lost morning in court, then just pay the ticket and move on. You may or may not want to do traffic school to keep the points from appearing on your license. While I’ve never done it myself, I hear the on-line version of traffic school is fairly painless.
  • Trial + Traffic school. This is probably the best option for most people. Go to the clerk.  Post bail (the amount of your ticket) and plead not-guilty.  Get a time for trial. SHOW UP ON TIME. When the court session starts, the clerk will allow you to have your fine reduced to only $50 if you take traffic school (with a $30 fee). For a total of $80, you’re done and the points are not added to your license. NOTE: If you’ve already done traffic school in the past 18 months, you’re not eligible to do it again. Sorry.
  • Plead not-guilty. Lots of options here. You can skip the arraignment and demand your right to a speedy trial (within 45 days) by going to the clerk and posting the $371 bond. Sometimes, due to the short notice, the officer isn’t properly subpoenaed and won’t know that he/she needs to testify against you (this happened in my case). If the officer doesn’t appear to testify, your case is dismissed. Or, the officer could already be in court to testify against other people and will realize that she needs to testify against you too, and will testify anyway (yep, this happened to me).Or, you can go to your arraignment and plead not-guilty there. This gives you the chance to make pre-trial motions. This makes the process very drawn-out — expect your trial date to be many months in the future.

Pleading not-guilty

NOTE WELL: This takes a lot of time and will really try your patience. DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN. In fact, you should expect to lose. Sorry, but the trial court for traffic and other infractions in San Francisco assumes GUILT. Moreover, the red light camera systems are considered infallible and therefore beyond reproach. AGAIN, YOU WILL LOSE.

Don’t waste your time

  • People often say that with traffic cases you should plead not-guilty and take your chances that the officer won’t show up. (If the officer doesn’t show up, your case is immediately dismissed.) I would agree with this strategy for all non-red light camera tickets. However, from what I can tell, the officers assisting with the red light camera prosecutions do not have normal police “beats”, and instead have a desk job, probably in the same building. This means they have a high liklihood of showing up.
  • If you are planning to contend that you don’t run red lights, you are a safe driver, and you’ve never done it before, do not waste your time. (Most murderers haven’t murdered anyone before, either.) You will be found GUILTY. Your fine will be lowered to $300, but they won’t grant you traffic school. You are better off taking the $80 buy-off deal mentioned above.
  • If you are planning to contend that the light was really yellow and the camera was wrong or broken, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME. You will be found GUILTY. I promise. Don’t forget the the cameras are considered infallible by the trial court judge. Even if it was broken!

Argue the law

While the cameras themselves might be considered infallible, the city has errored in the way they are set up and operated. You should expect to LOSE at trial even if you object to the evidence on these grounds. HOWEVER, these MAY help you get your ticket overturned in appeal. That’s right, if you want any chance of winning, you will have to APPEAL. This takes a lot of time and energy. If you’re fed up and willing to put in the time it takes to appeal, then go ahead and plead not-guilty. Otherwise, don’t waste your time and take the $80 buy-out deal.

What to do:

  • Buy the book Fight Your Ticket in California from Nolo Press. Make sure you get thee one specifically for California.
  • Go to the Hall of Justice (850 Bryant St.) with a copy of your citation many weeks before your trial. Parking hint: You can park on 6th street after 9am. so show up at 8:59 and you’ll have all the free parking you want. Otherwise you might have to pay the garages that charge $6 for the first 1/2 hour. Go to the 5th floor, turn right at the hallway, and go to the end. This is the Police Legal department. Tell the friendly officers (really, they have always been very friendly in this office) that you want to fill out an “Informal discovery request”. They will give you a short form. Fill it out, and the City’s “Photo prosecution packet” will be sent to you. This is exactly what they will present at trial, which is always a good thing to have beforehand.

Issues:

(For a good overview of many of these issues, read Highwayrobbery.net).

  • The city has not property issued warning tickets as required by 21455.5. CVC (California vehicle code) 21455.5 allows cities to put up Automated Enforcement Systems if they follow the guidelines set forth in the statue. One of the statutes is that “Prior to issuing citations under this section, a local jurisdiction utilizing an automated traffic enforcement system shall commence a program to issue only warning notices for 30 days.” While most cities (I believe San Francisco is included) took this to mean warning tickets only needed to be issued 30 days before the first camera in a city, a recent court ruling in Southern California mandated that EACH camera is succeptible to the 30-day rule. At trial, I suggest asking the prosecution’s witness (the officer) if they issued only warning tickets for the first 30 days of YOUR camera’s operation.
  • CVC 21455.5 also has very strict requirement with respect to intersection signage. 21455.5(a) basically says the city has to label an AES-enabled intersection from all sides. There is one exception: if they choose not to label the intersection from all sides, then it can “posts signs at all major entrances to the city, including, at a minimum, freeways, bridges, and state highway routes.” Note that San Francisco DOES NOT post the required signs on major city entrances like bridges, freeways, and state highway routes. Instead, they choose to label major freeway exits. This is not compliant with the letter or the spirit of the law. While some AES-enforced intersections ARE labeled with signage in all direction, many are completely un-labeled meaning the city is falling back on the fact that they think they’ve labeled the “freeways, bridges, and state highway routes”. If you bring this up at trial (as I did) expect to LOSE. By bringing it up at trial, though, you can use it in your appeal.
  • Interesting pre-trial motions. Present them at your arraignment. They probably won’t work, but might be useful ammunition during your appeal.
    • Try to subpoena the camera’s “source code”. The camera is more than a camera. It’s a computer. You have the right to question your accuser in court. Your accuser is this computer. You should have the right to know exactly how it is programmed. If this motion is granted, you will probably never see the “source code” (it’s a trade secret) and therefore I would expect the prosecution to drop the charges. It’s worth a shot. It will probably help your case if you know how (ie have the credentials) to interpet any “source code” that you might receive.
  • The camera is disallowed under California’s “Speed trap” laws. This is a very interesting one, and will take further research. CVC 40801 forbids speed traps in California. “What does this have to do with Red Light Cameras?” you might ask. Well, let me tell you. CVC 40801 says “No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.” CVS 40802 says “A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.” What does this mean to you? Well, the Red Light Computer decided to take a picture of you because you were headed for the intersection at a rate of speed high enough to assume that you were going to go past the ‘stop line’. It knew this because there are coils of wire in the pavement in each lane that are a set distance apart. It calculated your speed by securing the time it takes your vehicle to travel the known distance. Sound familiar? CVC 40801 now says they can’t use this evidence to prosecute you. But they did anyway, and now you have grounds to fight it. I didn’t try this angle, but I have a feeling you’ll LOSE if you do. But I want to hear about how it went, so write to me.

I’d love to hear from you. Write to me at aren /at/ thesandersens dotcom with your experiences.

933 thoughts on “San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets”

  1. Hi Roger,

    Follow up from my previous post above. I received a “courtesy notice” in the mail, stating that a citation has been issued to me. It has the citation date of 9/19/11 and payment due date of 10/21/11. The odd thing is, it’s addressed to me, but at my old address, yet it was still delivered to my current address. There was no forwarding address on it, so I have no idea how it was delivered to me. I talked to my ex and he said he received something at his address (where I’m no longer living) that was addressed to me. It’s a letter from the police department that has my name and registration info, as well as the pictures taken from the cameras, which has a pretty clear picture. It says I have until the 17th to respond to the court. Am I pretty much out of luck here?

  3. Sophie – First of all, get a 30-day extension. This can be done in Alameda County on line. I don’t know about SF. Other than, get an extension at the traffic window at the courthouse. Where is the ticket with the photographs? Your ex has? Get a copy from the police dept if you cannot find it. Call ahead of time and find out how much nonsense you have to go through to get a copy. Why can’t they mail it to you? They have your driver’s license address, correct. Anyway, once you have actually seen your ticket and viewed the video and photos, decide what to do. Not too many options that will successfully get you out of a $480 fine, but at least give yourself the opportunity. Let me know by post or email.
    rlouisj@aol.com

  4. Sweating Bullets…. Find out from the court if there is a citation in your name. If so, get citation number and any information – due dates, etc. Once a citation is issued it takes a few days for the ticket to be registered with the court, but it sounds like enough time has elapsed for that to have happened. If there is a citation in your name, then submit a new post.

  5. Hi Roger,

    My ex gave me the ticket that was mailed to his house. There’s a clear photo unfortunately. I’m probably out of luck, aren’t I?

  6. Sophie – Is it a real ticket? Does it say “Notice to Appear” and does it have the Courts address, etc.? (or does it say NOT to contact the court). Does the photo show the car – the limit line – and a clearly illuminated red light in one photo? Have you seen the video? Has someone else looked at the photo for clarity? How about giving me the citation no., City, License plate no. so I can see your ticket.

  7. The photo is pretty clear. My friend even laughed at how accurate the photo was.

    citation #: ZA0293054
    pin number: 245429501

  8. Sophie – I looked at the photos. I don’t know how SF prosecutes these tickets when there does not seem to be a photograph of a red light in the photos. How do we know the light was red?

  10. Sophie: Surely the issue of not having a photograph of the red signal light must have come up in court before. How can you find out how the commissioner handles something like that? I know Sherry Gendelman is a traffic atty with an office in SSF I believe. She probably has had clients and appeared in SF court before. I suggest contacting her for advice. Maybe a short consultation may not cost you.

  13. Sophie….From some old posts, it appears that SF may offer deals to folks at trial if they will plead guilty and take traffic school. If you have time, find out when camera cases are heard and where and sit in. Get there early and talk to the camera cops on what you might expect at trial. Bring your ticket. Report back.

  14. Unfortunately my ticket is due tomorrow, so that’s my final day to do anything. I’m planning on stopping by the court before work and seeing if they’ll reduce my fine. Fingers crossed.

  15. Sophie – Suggestion – I assume you will be seeing one of the traffic window clerks Monday? Ask them if they know if the judge knocks the fine down on Guilty pleas at arraignment or at trials. Also, ask about getting a routine 30 or 60 day extension (doesn’t hurt). Ask, also, if you could get a preset appt. for arraignment…I know that here in Fremont one cannot do this anymore. They make you arrive before court doors open to get in line in the hope that you can get into court that day. Find out what there system is.

    I find many clerks helpful. They don’t want to be caught giving “legal advice” but many are just regular folks who may help you best that they can. Ask them for ideas/alternatives.

    Let me know. Good luck.

  16. Hi Roger,

    Unfortunately, I realized I couldn’t afford a lost day, or even half day in court since I’m a freelancer and am paid hourly. I just sucked it up and paid the fine plus traffic school fees plus administration fees for a whopping $537.40. Another one bites the dust. :-/

  18. Roger,

    My email to you was overlooked back on September 17th. I think that you were in the middle of helping someone else out of their crisis. If you could read my email and respond, I would appreciate it.

  19. Hi Roger-Do you have anything on South San Francisco red light camera violations? I made a right turn at El Camino Real and Westborough Blvd @ a red light that said ok to turn after making a stop. I’m confident that I made a stop, it said that there was 3.1 seconds in between arrival and departure of the light (i could see the end of my car making the turn). There was no on-coming traffic or anyone making a U-turn (a left turn signal was green @ the time) and no pedestrians. I made a completely safe right turn, so I’m wondering if I should try to contest this?

  20. Hi Roger,
    I was driving down on Mission St a few days ago and made a left turn on 16th (while the light was green), before I realized there was a a “no left turn” sign. I saw there are cameras on every possible angle on that corner. Would the cameras catch the left turn? Please tell me they won’t…

  22. Steph – If you give the website and info to view the infraction, I could see for myself. I don’t see many ATS tickets and videos. Usually the 2nd photo is taken about 1 second after the first. Also, without a video it is hard to prove that you did not stop. Did you view the video. Do you know if you received a real ticket which says “Notice to Appear?”

  23. Aren – There is one commissioner in Alameda County who changes right turn violations from 21453(a) to (b) and lowers the fine drastically. Do you know of any in San Mateo or San Francisco counties??

  24. Thank you for all the info, very helpful. My dad just received a ticket for $486. He was turning to El Camino Blvd from Hickey Blvd, on red. There are 2 contradicting signs, “Red Light Violation $446″ and “After Stop turn is permitted on Red”.

    He later went back and took pictures of the signs. Any chances here? WHat would be the best course of action?

    Thanks

  25. Linda,
    a. look at video – chances are dad did not stop.
    b. look at photo – is it clear enough to identify him? If a possibility that it is unclear enough to identify him, that could work – and there are some tips to help him make that case. (he is the worst judge of the clarity of the photo.) He will say it looks like him. (that is because, most likely, it IS him.) Nothing else comes to mind without knowing more. The “contradicting signs” argument seems to have no “legs.”

  26. Great info, Aren and Roger J. I’m pretty sure I have a camera citation on my way to me, after I got “lit up” at Van Ness and Bush in SF. As bad as the $480 ticket is, this section of Van Ness is a “double fine zone”–could this mean I’m in for $960? Yowza. I revisited the intersection today, and there is certainly no posted signage in any direction that it’s a camera-controlled intersection. As with others above, I’m confused on the CVC regulation that the intersection must be signed in all directions OR that all major entrances to the city but be signed. There are hints above that this is not a good strategy to pursue–can anyone elaborate on why? Assuming the lack-of-signage argument is not a good one, and assuming my impending citation shows my face and license plate clearly, it doesn’t seem like my ticket is worth fighting, even by a trial by declaration. Thoughts?

  27. Nick P…How much time can you devote to fighting this potential ticket? First – be on the lookout for the mailman. Did you get a ticket – Was it postmarked within 11 days of the infraction and received within 15 days? Is the photo clear enough? does it resemble any other household members, etc? Look up “it’s not me” section under “fighting your ticket” at highwayrobbery.net. Study up while you wait for the mail man. Then, repost.

  28. Lena, I know that intersection well, and it IS very confusing. I’m never sure what to do their, either. I don’t know how that area is zoned, but people should complain about it.

  29. Roger J, I’m the same Melanie that was worried I was going to get a ticket (several posts above) for the light flashing on me at 6th/Bryant. Well, much to my relief, I did not get a ticket in the mail and it has been over a month. Phew!

  30. Hi Aren/Roger,

    First of all, thank you so much for having this blog.

    I drove the rental car and got a citation for red light camera at Wilshire & Santa Monica junction (LA). It was bad traffic and I had bad stomach pain and wanted to follow the car in front of me when he/she was stumbled the gear to pass the intersection. Unfortunately, I was too late while the car before me was not. This is my first ticket. The car is a rental car, we just moved to L.A so we do not have Cali driver license yet. The ticket was under my husband name who was not present in the car that day. The birthday was incorrect but it was the real ticket (I checked). Can my husband issue in the ticket “Not Me” and “Decline to state” the driver? Would this work since the rental car might have my name as part of the insurance with rental company as well? I do not want my husband to be in trouble but again $480 + $60 are too much to pay. Your help is much appreciated.

    P.S (My husband’s current driver license has old address where my driving license has our new address on it).

  31. Angie, The ticket is real (not a snitch ticket) and was issued to your husband. If true, your husband can show “his” ticket to the judge at arraignment and ask him to dismiss it. “Judge, can you please dismiss since obviously it is a woman driving.” If not successful, plead Not Guilty and see if the officer testifies as to the accuracy of his identification of the driver. Again, ask the judge to dismiss for lack of evidence. Your husband does not have to testify. Your husband cannot be cross examined. He cannot be asked who was driving. Your husband can do this by mail (Trial by Written Declaration) by enclosing a copy of his driver’s license and the photo ticket which clearly shows someone else driving.

    If your husband just mails the ticket back saying “it’s not me.” it may give police the opportunity to research other drivers at the address and come up with your image.

  32. Roger, did you ever hear back from Heidi, who had the question on demurring (dated Oct. 11th)? She stated having filed a TBWD form — curious how it worked out for her. I may be in the same boat. Do you have any idea as to a success rate by way of demurring?

    Thank you.

  33. EDJ – I have not heard back from Heide and don’t know the success rate for demurring. If I learn something I will let you know. Ask the editor of highwayrobbery.net

  34. Roger/Aren I got a rolling right camera ticket in Millbrae and am not eligible for Traffic school. I paid bail of $524 and have a trial scheduled for 12/23. I have to fight it, as my livelihood depends on it (must keep my driver’s record clean). The picture is clear and the video is showing me turning without stopping first. Can you help?

  35. Thanks for this blog. Just came home to a letter asking for $482 for a right on red without stopping. In my view, that is extremely excessive for the offense. $482 seems more like a barreling straight through at 70mph with a BAC of 0.16 (just a joke…am not endorsing drunk driving). Since they have photos and video, it would appear my goose is cooked from the standpoint of disputing the charge, but do I have a chance at getting the fine reduced? With traffic school to avoid the point on my license, that’s a bill of $532, which really hurts.

  37. I just got a letter from red light camera people going to the left on red from one way street to one way street. It seemed I had time to do it on yellow, but the photo shows red, so does the video. I was on Irwin and Third, in Marin County, north of SF, on October 31.

    I am a teacher, single parent and suport my mom and my 10 year old child, I cannot pay ANY bail, I do not have a dime to spear: what happens if you cannot pay?

  38. Stas G – – – At trial, seek out the cop beforehand and ask him if he would agree to changing the violation to 21710 (coasting) or to the appropriate Municipal Code for Millbrae (failure to obey a traffic control device). Go on line to find out Millbrae’s Muni Code Number. You could even contact the cop ahead of time. Many cops and courts recognize the fact that commercially licensed drivers can lose their job if they get a point. For whatever reason you cannot get a point on your license, you should ask about these options. The fine for 21710 is about 1/2 the amount. Muni Code violation might be the same amt. but it will not go onto your driving record. Neither would require traffic school. The fact that it is a fairly minor violation (slow speed turn) will help you convince the cop or court to reduce the pain. Submit a post to this blog on the result.

  39. Ian – – I am not familiar with SF tickets and have seen some photo tickets and videos which do not show a red light in the photograph since the photo is taken from the front. Other than that, judges seem to generously grant permission to do community service work in lieu of the fine. Sometimes, they cannot dismiss about $70 but the rest of the fine can be commuted. You can work it off at any qualified non-profit ($10 per hour). Traffic School can be requested but the $57 fee can be worked off…you must pay that after you paid your fine. Food Banks are good places to do community service because they use a lot of people and can put you to work in the 2 or 3 months you will be given to complete your 40+ hours of service. Community Service can be performed anywhere in the state not just in the city which cited you.

  40. Zoe – see comment above directed toward Ian. Community Service can be requested at arraignment. “Your honor, I would like to plead guilty if you can grant me permission to do community service.” If for some reason, the judge says no, change your plea to Not Guilty. Get a trial date. You may get a different judge and then ask again. In fact, if you get the same judge you can challenge the judge. Google 170.6 peremptory challenge or read up on it at highwayrobbery.net

  43. Does anyone know the speed limit on Park Presidio Blvd between the Golden Gate Bridge and Lake Street? I received a RL ticket while in SF on vacation, but I don’t live there to check the route. Is it worth pointing out that I was going below the speed limit at the time, and had I been going the speed limit I would have been past the commitment line–I was 0.4 sec late? Also, is there required Red Light camera signage entering SF from GG Bridge onto Highway 1 Southbound (Park Presidio Blvd)? Finally, where are the lights at that intersection? My recollection is that there is one on each side of the road (not overhead) on the far side of the intersection.

  44. Zoe – Good idea. If you can do the community service ask the judge in TBWD. Plead Guilty and asked that you be sentenced to 48 hours of service. Explain briefly the financial hardship. Even if it is not granted you can ask for a new trial – Trial de Novo.

  46. TO ALL: If you get cited for a red light camera ticket in Fremont or within the jurisdiction of the Fremont Courthouse, you must avoid Traffic Commissioner Nancy Lonsdale. People bring their ticket to court to see the judge primarily to get extensions, a payment plan, or community service. Any of these things are much harder to get and some are virtually impossible from Lonsdale. Any other commissioner or judge will be much more generous. Plea “Not Guilty” at arraignment or issue a peremptory challenge (see Calif code of civil procedure 170.6) in order to get in front of a different judge.

  47. I’ve just received a ticket for ostensibly failing to stop at a red signal at Van Ness and Bush. The pictures just show me entering the intersection. The close-up of my license plate shows another license plate right behind me. I never would have entered the intersection if the light had been red–in heavy traffic at 3 PM on a Friday. There is no picture of a stoplight or me leaving the intersection. On the website, the yellow time is listed as 3.5 and the red time as 0.4. Could someone help me interpret this?

  48. Kathleen. Aren’s previous response to someone else will help you decipher the data bar.
    ” Those ACS camera readouts (gatsometer) are impossible to read — probably purposefully so.

    “Time since red” is in the same place in both pictures.  0.4 in the first photo, and 1.1 in the second photo, a difference of .7.  The .67 number is the actual time between the two photos (which rounds to .7).

    So at 33 mph, a car goes 48.4 feet per second (tip, google does these conversions for you  … just search for “33mph in feet per second”) so .67 seconds yields 34 feet.

    If I were to do a trial by written declaration for this ticket, I would say that there is no evidence in these photos that the driver is facing a steady red signal.  The traffic lights that are visible in these pictures are all green.”

    Kathleen,
    Is there a video? Have you seen it? Would you like me to take a look? If so, provide this info to me at rlouisj@aol.com
    > 
    > website: public.cite-web.com 
    > 
    > Citation No. ______
    > 
    > Pin No. _____

  49. HI IWAS TRYINGTO JUMP YELLOW,BUT I WAS TOO FAR AND SPEEDING AND JUMPED RED CLEARLY BUT I REMEMBER NO CAMERA FLASHED.
    WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT?

  50. Hi, I rolled through a right turn on a red light in San Mateo, at e.Hillsdale Blvd and Saratoga. Just 2 weeks after my husband got his first ticket in 7 years at same place. This place is a super trap. I wondered if San Mateo county offered the same fee reduction if you sign up for a court appearance? Also I wondered if they offered community service. I have a feeling they don’t. This ticket is $519.98, and my husbands is $480….I asked why the difference, and was told over the phone that it depended on your driving record. I can NOT AFFORD this. It has been a few years since I got a ticket,so I can go to traffic school. I hope that the option of a fee reduction if you go to traffic school, if you sign up for court is happening in San Mateo. My appearance date is Monday, Nov.21st. ..and thanks for this service, it is so nice to ask questions of a person with knowledge and get quick reply’s. thanks so much.

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