San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets

UPDATE 10/19/2005: 9 months after the ticket, I got the appeal decision in the mail. I won!

Like many cities in California, San Francisco has been using Automated Enforcement Systems (a.k.a. “Red Light Cameras”) at many of its intersections for several years now. Although the stated purpose is (of course) for safety, the real reason is revenue. If you are the unlucky recipient of one of the citations in the mail (as yours truly recently was) then this website is for you. It explains your options and relates my experience with the San Francisco court system.

Your choices:

  • The picture isn’t of you. The registered owner is who gets sent the ticket. If the picture is not of you, sign the attached affidavit saying that the picture isn’t of you. Don’t lie — you’re saying under the penalty of purjury that it’s not you in the ticket. DO NOT, however, TELL THEM WHO IS IN THE PICTURE. It’s their job to figure that out, not yours. Don’t rat out your friends and family.
  • Pay it. If $371 is worth less to you than a lost morning in court, then just pay the ticket and move on. You may or may not want to do traffic school to keep the points from appearing on your license. While I’ve never done it myself, I hear the on-line version of traffic school is fairly painless.
  • Trial + Traffic school. This is probably the best option for most people. Go to the clerk.  Post bail (the amount of your ticket) and plead not-guilty.  Get a time for trial. SHOW UP ON TIME. When the court session starts, the clerk will allow you to have your fine reduced to only $50 if you take traffic school (with a $30 fee). For a total of $80, you’re done and the points are not added to your license. NOTE: If you’ve already done traffic school in the past 18 months, you’re not eligible to do it again. Sorry.
  • Plead not-guilty. Lots of options here. You can skip the arraignment and demand your right to a speedy trial (within 45 days) by going to the clerk and posting the $371 bond. Sometimes, due to the short notice, the officer isn’t properly subpoenaed and won’t know that he/she needs to testify against you (this happened in my case). If the officer doesn’t appear to testify, your case is dismissed. Or, the officer could already be in court to testify against other people and will realize that she needs to testify against you too, and will testify anyway (yep, this happened to me).Or, you can go to your arraignment and plead not-guilty there. This gives you the chance to make pre-trial motions. This makes the process very drawn-out — expect your trial date to be many months in the future.

Pleading not-guilty

NOTE WELL: This takes a lot of time and will really try your patience. DO NOT EXPECT TO WIN. In fact, you should expect to lose. Sorry, but the trial court for traffic and other infractions in San Francisco assumes GUILT. Moreover, the red light camera systems are considered infallible and therefore beyond reproach. AGAIN, YOU WILL LOSE.

Don’t waste your time

  • People often say that with traffic cases you should plead not-guilty and take your chances that the officer won’t show up. (If the officer doesn’t show up, your case is immediately dismissed.) I would agree with this strategy for all non-red light camera tickets. However, from what I can tell, the officers assisting with the red light camera prosecutions do not have normal police “beats”, and instead have a desk job, probably in the same building. This means they have a high liklihood of showing up.
  • If you are planning to contend that you don’t run red lights, you are a safe driver, and you’ve never done it before, do not waste your time. (Most murderers haven’t murdered anyone before, either.) You will be found GUILTY. Your fine will be lowered to $300, but they won’t grant you traffic school. You are better off taking the $80 buy-off deal mentioned above.
  • If you are planning to contend that the light was really yellow and the camera was wrong or broken, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME. You will be found GUILTY. I promise. Don’t forget the the cameras are considered infallible by the trial court judge. Even if it was broken!

Argue the law

While the cameras themselves might be considered infallible, the city has errored in the way they are set up and operated. You should expect to LOSE at trial even if you object to the evidence on these grounds. HOWEVER, these MAY help you get your ticket overturned in appeal. That’s right, if you want any chance of winning, you will have to APPEAL. This takes a lot of time and energy. If you’re fed up and willing to put in the time it takes to appeal, then go ahead and plead not-guilty. Otherwise, don’t waste your time and take the $80 buy-out deal.

What to do:

  • Buy the book Fight Your Ticket in California from Nolo Press. Make sure you get thee one specifically for California.
  • Go to the Hall of Justice (850 Bryant St.) with a copy of your citation many weeks before your trial. Parking hint: You can park on 6th street after 9am. so show up at 8:59 and you’ll have all the free parking you want. Otherwise you might have to pay the garages that charge $6 for the first 1/2 hour. Go to the 5th floor, turn right at the hallway, and go to the end. This is the Police Legal department. Tell the friendly officers (really, they have always been very friendly in this office) that you want to fill out an “Informal discovery request”. They will give you a short form. Fill it out, and the City’s “Photo prosecution packet” will be sent to you. This is exactly what they will present at trial, which is always a good thing to have beforehand.

Issues:

(For a good overview of many of these issues, read Highwayrobbery.net).

  • The city has not property issued warning tickets as required by 21455.5. CVC (California vehicle code) 21455.5 allows cities to put up Automated Enforcement Systems if they follow the guidelines set forth in the statue. One of the statutes is that “Prior to issuing citations under this section, a local jurisdiction utilizing an automated traffic enforcement system shall commence a program to issue only warning notices for 30 days.” While most cities (I believe San Francisco is included) took this to mean warning tickets only needed to be issued 30 days before the first camera in a city, a recent court ruling in Southern California mandated that EACH camera is succeptible to the 30-day rule. At trial, I suggest asking the prosecution’s witness (the officer) if they issued only warning tickets for the first 30 days of YOUR camera’s operation.
  • CVC 21455.5 also has very strict requirement with respect to intersection signage. 21455.5(a) basically says the city has to label an AES-enabled intersection from all sides. There is one exception: if they choose not to label the intersection from all sides, then it can “posts signs at all major entrances to the city, including, at a minimum, freeways, bridges, and state highway routes.” Note that San Francisco DOES NOT post the required signs on major city entrances like bridges, freeways, and state highway routes. Instead, they choose to label major freeway exits. This is not compliant with the letter or the spirit of the law. While some AES-enforced intersections ARE labeled with signage in all direction, many are completely un-labeled meaning the city is falling back on the fact that they think they’ve labeled the “freeways, bridges, and state highway routes”. If you bring this up at trial (as I did) expect to LOSE. By bringing it up at trial, though, you can use it in your appeal.
  • Interesting pre-trial motions. Present them at your arraignment. They probably won’t work, but might be useful ammunition during your appeal.
    • Try to subpoena the camera’s “source code”. The camera is more than a camera. It’s a computer. You have the right to question your accuser in court. Your accuser is this computer. You should have the right to know exactly how it is programmed. If this motion is granted, you will probably never see the “source code” (it’s a trade secret) and therefore I would expect the prosecution to drop the charges. It’s worth a shot. It will probably help your case if you know how (ie have the credentials) to interpet any “source code” that you might receive.
  • The camera is disallowed under California’s “Speed trap” laws. This is a very interesting one, and will take further research. CVC 40801 forbids speed traps in California. “What does this have to do with Red Light Cameras?” you might ask. Well, let me tell you. CVC 40801 says “No peace officer or other person shall use a speed trap in arresting, or participating or assisting in the arrest of, any person for any alleged violation of this code nor shall any speed trap be used in securing evidence as to the speed of any vehicle for the purpose of an arrest or prosecution under this code.” CVS 40802 says “A particular section of a highway measured as to distance and with boundaries marked, designated, or otherwise determined in order that the speed of a vehicle may be calculated by securing the time it takes the vehicle to travel the known distance.” What does this mean to you? Well, the Red Light Computer decided to take a picture of you because you were headed for the intersection at a rate of speed high enough to assume that you were going to go past the ‘stop line’. It knew this because there are coils of wire in the pavement in each lane that are a set distance apart. It calculated your speed by securing the time it takes your vehicle to travel the known distance. Sound familiar? CVC 40801 now says they can’t use this evidence to prosecute you. But they did anyway, and now you have grounds to fight it. I didn’t try this angle, but I have a feeling you’ll LOSE if you do. But I want to hear about how it went, so write to me.

I’d love to hear from you. Write to me at aren /at/ thesandersens dotcom with your experiences.

933 thoughts on “San Francisco Red Light Camera Tickets”

  2. Roger, I was told most county’s have to have a sign posted of a red light camera. If this is true there is none visible at the intersection where I got this ticket, in San Mateo. Do you know if there is a place that actually lists each county’s rules for these rickets? It seems pretty random. Thanks for your time, this is such a awesome service you are doing for the public, many of who are going through much stress over these outrageously expensive tickets…..and in this economy they keep going up. Thanks, again. :>)

  3. Jean,
    I did not know of higher fines than $490 anywhere and that fines were being assessed on driving records. I would like to know more. Can you find out? What is the formula or what marks against your driving record trigger higher fines. This is important.
    A city must post signs either at entrances to the city or at each intersection where there are cameras. Virtually every city opts for the signs at city entrances. Fewer signs – (maybe more violations, too).
    I have very little info on if there are reductions based on your appearance in court or based on a guilty plea. I doubt if Traffic School results in a reduction of the fine but it will keep point hidden from your insurance co.

    There may be a few possible defenses but not available before Monday. If you are going to arraignment (and not trial) on Monday, you may have time to find out more information before trial.
    How would you like to be a courtroom observer? I have seen over a dozen commissioners and hundreds of requests for community service. C.S. has always been granted if unemployed or working 20 hours or less. Many times with no questions asked. The only exception I have found ANYWHERE is Commissioner Nancy Lonsdale of the Fremont Courthouse who virtually NEVER grants community service. For tons of information on redlight cameras see website: highwayrobbery.net

  4. Thanks so much for the quick reply. On Monday, I am going for an arraignment. I am going to check San Mateos countys entrance signs, just to be sure. I will ask on Monday, how they determine the amount of ticket. The only points I could have are for , a few years ago, a speeding ticket, and another for not making a complete stop at a stop sign. I have no DUI’S, or any serious accidents. I will tell you about how San Mateo determines the amount of the ticket, after I find out. What a honor, to be the one with the highest dollar amount ticket…..a distinction I could live without. Hopefully I will have some kind of usable defense. Thanks again, Last night I did start to check out highwayrobberynet Thanks, Roger. I will let you know what I find out at my arrainment. :>)

  5. I just got busted for a red light violation by a camera at the intersection of Ocatavia and Fell. There are 4 lanes at this intersection, the left two go straight and the right two go on to the freeway when heading north on Fell. I was in lane 2, counting from left to right, where the farthest left lane is lane 1, lanes 1 and 2 had a red light (33sec) and lanes 3 and 4 had the green light to make a right turn. As I approached the intersection I realized that I was in the wrong lane to get on the freeway. I put on my turn signal and moved right, across a solid white line to get in to lane 3 to make the right. Because I made this decision at the last moment, during the first part of my turn, the left side of my car was still in lane 2 by just a hair, as such I triggered the red light camera. The final part of my turn is fully in the correct lane. The video online shows all of this pretty clearly.

    If this made any sense to anyone, I would like their input as to what I should do.

    Contest and represent myself? Contest and pay 150-200$ for representation? Not contest?

    thank you!

  6. hi. I got a red light ticket. tried to watch the video and only got a white movie. when i sent the info to my PROGRAMMER/CODE WRITER boyfriend who’s a super geek, he sent it back to me and then it was just black. the Violation.com website doesnt even allow me to view a thing. Anyway, as i was waiting for my trial date. I checked the box that allows me to pay and then have my trial. a few weeks later i got mail from the court and it was a failure to appear. apparently i got one a month before too and never got a ticket or ANY SINGLE THING and had no idea i was even supposed to be there. I thought they had the date wrong bc i was supposed to be in court the 17th, and apparently my other trial was on the 7th of this month. (not to mention that i never told them what i chose bc i never got anything about it) anyway, i went to the court to let them know how they messed my my stuff and she said ‘no, you are making payments on this, and you already made one.” Ummm.. no. i wouldnt make payments on anything, for one…and i didnt. i had the copies of my check and everything from my bank. i actually got the woman who made the mistake and she admitted it, changed it, and gave me a new date. so…if i didnt go in…..i wouldve never gotten my court date. ever. now luckily this is 48 days since the offense and i think i can get off that one just because of that, right? is it really that easy? i already paid. they pay back?

    Now on to never getting the notice/ticket in the first place….how in the world do i go about proving this? now it’s the state’s word against mine. this is unfair, and i have to find a way to get out of this.

    even if i am guilty, which i dont know bc i cant see the videos….these both should be thrown out if you ask me.

    PRETTY PLEASE HELP ME, my trial is MONDAY the 28th at 8:30am! (nov)

    lots of love from SF:)
    rachel

  7. Rachael F…Go to the police dept and ask them to pull up the video. See what it shows. If Monday is your trial date (and not arraignment), wait and see what the prosecution’s case is. Object if you like based on hearsay. Maybe video is unavailable and ask for dismissal based on lack of evidence. A video is only necessary if infraction was for a right turn. If straight through or left turn, only still pictures are necessary to convict. Is red light clearly visible in photo and are you clearly identifiable in photos. These questions can be asked. You can tell your story to judge and ask for a continuance.

  8. Bob…I have seen something similar twice in court. Were cited under 21453(a) or (c)?? Usually it is a driver in a left turn lane who runs the red as he merges to the right to go straight on a green light.
    The argument is that you entered the intersection and made a legal right turn. Ask that infraction be amended to either illegal lane change or some code which prohibits making a turn from an improper lane. Now if the infraction is changed, then it will be for a violation which carries a lower fine and which does not have a mandatory minimum of $480. Now once that is done and the prosecution rests its case, make the argument that only 21453 can be photo enforced. Cameras are not allowed as evidence of illegal lane changes or using cell phones, etc. Email editor@highwayrobbery.net for more information. Both times I have witnessed similar situations resulted in guilty verdicts because the law was not clearly explained to judge. Be prepared. You can make this argument in Trial by Written Declaration. Include actual vehicle codes you violated and include the language in the law which prohibits the cameras being used to cite infractions other than 21453’s. Oh, by the way, I once heard a judge ask the defendant if he would agree to plea guilty to illegal lane change. This can get tricky. You want to agree to change the violation, but also do not want to admit to committing this offense. Your statement that you violated a different law can be used against you even if the camera evidence cannot.

  9. Wow! thanks for the quick and useful response. I have emailed the editor and will think carefully about what you have suggested. If you would find it useful, I can also send you the information to view the video…

    thanks again!

  10. Bob – you can email me at rlouisj@aol.com if you want to keep your citation off the internet. The editor of highwayrobbery.net will ask you to contact your legislator about the fraud of these cameras in return for personal help. Believe me, he knows more than I. I encourage a letter to your elected rep.

  11. Hi,

    I was making a right turn between Westborough and El Camino in south city at around 4am on Nov. 24 (yup, right after thanksgiving). When I made the right turn, i believe the light was turnning from yellow to red. The next thing I remember was the camera flashes. Everything went so fast that I wasn’t sure if I made the right turn during yellow light or red light. I do know that I slowed down when making the turn but did not a stop since I thought I was turnning on yellow not red. Per south city website, they review all videos/pics before issuing a citiation. Now how do I know if I will be getting a citiation or not? When should I be expecting it and if I don’t receive anything should I call the south city hotline? any info would help. thank you.

  12. T.C. I believe the citation must be postmarked within 11 days or received in 15 days. Wait. Save envelope if you get the ticket and make note of the date. Then visit photonotice.com to view the video. Are you the registered owner? If your driver’s license photo cannot be matched with photo ticket, the ticket might be issued in the owner’s name. Let the owner know to contact you – AND not to ID you by sending your name in. Repost at that time.

  13. Hi Roger,

    Thanks for the fast reply!! I’m the registered owner for the car. If I don’t get the ticket within 15 days, should I call the south city traffic violation hotline to verify? I’m just afraid that if the ticket get lost in the mail and I don’t do the proper action on time, I’ll be penalized for bigger amount (I heard cases where some people didn’t get their citation in the mail and when the they receive the 2nd notice, the penality gets bigger).

    Also, if I do get the ticket and it turns out that I did make the right turn on red not yellow light, can I plead guilty in the court to have the amount reduce and then go to traffic school? Or should I fight it and not plead guilty but how would I fight it? I know I’m eligable for traffic school but if I plead guilty, would the judge waive my traffic school option?? Thanks!!!

  14. Fines do not increase. If you fail to pay or plea by due date (usually about 60 days from infraction), a civil assessment of $300 can be added.

    If you get a citation look closely at time into red (see data bar), clarity of photo, and other particulars. If you do not get a citation you should be able to contact the court and see if there is a citation in your name. You have nothing to do (but worry, I guess) for the next 7-14 days.

  16. Hi, I just received a $480 ticket for rolling through the red on a right turn at Veterans and Whipple. I looked at the video and it’s pretty clear. The photo is pretty clear. The ticket is a real ticket, not a ‘snitch’. I am losing my job and recently declared bankruptcy. This fine is not something I can afford to pay, nor the increase in insurance. Will Redwood City/San Mateo Cty lower this fine if I plead my hardship? I’m devastated by this.

    Thanks for any help you can provide.

  17. I got a ticket at Westborough and Hickey near Costco. There are 2 confusing signs, “red light ticket”, and “after stop turn is permitted on red.” I thought I stopped and made a right, then the flashes and I got a ticket. Has anyone had experience with the courts understanding the confusion with this intersection? I need to appear before 12/12/11.

  19. jen…I had heard the Redwood City judge knocks off $100 for a quick plea of guilty. Take traffic school to keep point hidden from insurance co. Ask for community service. Sit in traffic court one day to learn what your odds are. I found every commissioner is willing to grant community service to those with financial hardship. Pick your own nonprofit to complete your service. You are credited for $10 for every hour of service. Look up food banks in your area if you don’t know who to do your time with. They are used to hiring short-term court-ordered community service workers. I have found only one commissioner anywhere who does not grant community service and that is Commissioner Nancy Roberts Lonsdale of Fremont.

  20. Hi There,

    I am the same position as Danny. I got a ticket at Westborough and Hickey near Costco for a rolling stop on a red light. I was just wondering, how much would the judge be able to knock off the fine, based on the fact that there is solid evidence that I rolled a stop light? I turn at this intersection every morning before I go to work and that one morning I failed to stop completely. To clarify, the steps I need to take are: 1) write a written appeal for trial 2) go to court 3) attend traffic school. Thanks so much!

  21. Rachel….How clear is the photo? Can someone other than you identify you beyond a reasonable doubt. Without any other info, I don’t see much grounds for a defense. Why not become an activist? I see the latest camera contract was approved by a vote of 3-2. Certainly of the city’s over 6,000 tickets a year at this intersection, most were issued to right turners. Sounds do-able to change one council member’s vote.

  22. Hi there,

    I just found this blog – Thank you Aren and Rodger for a wealth of information!

    I got cited for a red light camera ticket (straight through) in Fremont (Mission/Warm Springs). I requested for a Trial by Written Declaration and received form TR-205 but have not filed the form yet. I wish I had read this blog and highwayrobbery.net before initiating the TBD process, as this is probably not a smart way to go. I think my only chance in beating this ticket via this route is if the citing officer (Frank Noey, retired Fremont police officer now working for the Fremont police department) fails to file for his declaration, which seems highly unlikely. It will also take a lot of time and energy that I currently do not have in trying NOT to end up with Commissioner Lonsdale (requesting Trial De Novo and challenging the judge). And yes, I have also read articles on Commissioner Lonsdales track record.

    Could you please tell me, can I still go to the clerk’s office and change my plea to guilty and still go to traffic school? Or have I waived my rights to traffic school just by requesting the TBD procedure?

    (And yes, just to confirm, my “ticket” still states “If you choose to appear in court you must first view the video of this violation at http://www.photonotice.com”.)

    Thank you in advance for your time!

  23. I just found out the answer to my own question from the Clerk’s Office – No, I can no longer change the plea and still go to traffic school. I can only request for traffic school when I fill out my TBD form in the event that I’m found guilty. Then it’s up to the judge/commissioner.

  24. Kat…You sound very sharp. How about this? Do TBWD and include what I think to be true – there is not photo enforcement sign at this one entrance to the city: 880 southbound at Mission/Warm Springs exit….21455.5 cvc or some other code no. specifically states that the city can either put the sign up at each enforced intersection or at each entry to the city. If there is no sign, then Fremont has not complied with the law. Send an email to city clerk of Fremont – “public records act request” and ask for any document listing where the warning signs are placed. They have 10 days to respond with the document. Drive 880 s/b and see for yourself. Submit documentation w/TBWD. Ask the judge in TBWD for traffic school (and/or community service if you like) if found guilty. All this does not take much time but it does take a few minutes here and there, so don’t procrastinate. I believe you can get a 30 day extension by phone if all this is tough to work into your schedule.
    Roger rlouisj@aol.com
    Question the clarity of the photo and the late time on the data bar are possible defenses.

    please email me so I can communicate directly
    p.s. I have never witnessed anyone denied, if eligible, traffic school and other than Lonsdale I have never witnessed anyone denied community service. Is that an option?

  25. I just wanted to let you know of another option in case it hasnt been mentioned. I drive for a living here in Orange County and I got a red light ticket while making a right turn. I cant afford to get any points on my record so I decided to take the risk and hired a traffic attorney which cost me $300. It is a gamble, because if you loose you are out the fines plus the $300. Fortunately I won and it only cost me the price of the attorney.

  26. Sherry! Sherry! Sherry!

    Thank you, guys, for your wonderful blog and amazing referral!

    Little background so that peops don’t have to search for my old post:

    I got rolling red right turn camera ticket in Millbrae, found this blog, found referral to South San Francisco Attorney – Sherry G., setup an appointment with her assistant, went there with my paperwork, pay little fee. Week later my case was dismissed for “the luck of evidence”. Thank you, guys, for all your help.

    Stas

  27. Hi aren.

    I am in oakland and got ticket, i looked it up and it is totally me, the only thing is the vehicle is in my moms name and the ticket is in my name and sent to our old address, we have moved way before i got the ticket and i believe the information with DMV has been updated., did it get forwarded to me because im on the insurance? i dont want to lie, i just dont want to pay the full amount, and to go to traffice school cost more than just the bail.. please which is the cheapest solution ? btw, It was never mailed “certified” to my new address, so how do they know i ever received it. I was afraid that since i viewed the video online they may know i received it that way? what are your thoughts?? thanks Nicole

  28. Stas G – It would be helpful if you could post why your ticket was dismissed. I have seen many tickets dismissed in interest of justice…more so when represented by an atty. Can you give us some info?
    Thanks.

  29. Nicole: The red light camera cop probably recognized that the image of the owner of the car (Driver’s license photo) did not match the image of the driver. It is pretty easy for police to look up other licensed drivers at the same address. That is probably how they found your driver’s license photo and put the ticket in your name. Your ticket is probably past the due date and maybe a civil assessment of $300 has been applied by now. Your story will help in getting rid of the extra $300 penalty, but it does not deal with the underlying ticket. There are many defenses – some rather technical – on these camera tickets but you have provided no information. If you do not do anything I think eventually your license will be suspended. You could share your ticket info with the editor of website: highwayrobbery.net, or myself, or Sherry Gendelman, Atty, SSF., perhaps.

  31. i got caught with red light camera ticket two years ago. when i bought my car from my landlord the ticket went to him. the landlord went to 850 bryant and gave him my information but i haven’t received anything in the mail about the ticket. i went to look up my dmv record and the ciation is under my record and i got point on my insurance from it. is there any suggestion on how i can fight this? in my defense i know i got the ticket because of my land lord but what if i say i never saw the previous owner of the car since i bought the car and never knew about this penalty. coould i admit guilt but go to traffic school. because i never received the ticket or anything in the mail. and i lived in at my house since i was born. i also paid every ticket i ever got and had a perfect record until i looked up my dmv record. but i feel if i never received anything in the mail how could i know if i ever got the ticket until after checking my record and the point on my insurance. plus i registered by lincese during the viloation on my record and dmv never said anything about it. my point is how can i fight this if i pretend i never knew about this. pls help thank you

  32. Chris – first I would get whatever documentation exists from the courthouse, police dept., and perhaps DMV. Copy of citation, dates, times, license plate no.s, etc. Then repost with information.

  33. Kat – did you say you filed a not guilty plea by Written Declaration but did not ask for traffic school if found guilty? I have seen people get on calendar at arraignment and ask for traffic school even after the case was over and it was granted.

  34. Hello I just received a mail in the ticket for red light camera. I swear I passed the line right when the light turned yellow, but didn’t necessarily make it all the way to the other side….caught my car in the middle of the lane as it was red.

    1. How can i red the late timing on the ticket? It’s confusing?
    2. Should I just go to court and try to fight it? I read above and you said I’ll lose, but I also double checked the red light area and NO SIGNS are posted that this is a photo enforced area and thought it would be in my favor to try and fight it. Let me know what I can do.

    BTW i received the ticket at Geary and Franklin (in San Francisco)

  35. Hi, I accidentally ran a red light on Market street the other day and saw the camera flash. I’m new to driving in SF and was behind a Muni train at night…it slowed down and as the light turned red, I ended up stuck in a spot where I couldn’t tell if I was behind the lines or inside the intersection. I decided to just go the rest of the way once the train went rather than be stuck in a dangerous spot, and it flashed, so I’m pretty sure I’ll get a ticket.
    I’m wondering what I should do – if I want my fee lowered and to take traffic school do I plead guilty or not guilty? I’m a little confused by your article. At first I read that I should pay it, plead not guilty, and then get it lowered to $80 total with traffic school. Then I read that if I plead not guilty I won’t be offered traffic school and will lose anyway, so I’m not sure exactly what to do. I’d like to keep the points off my record which is perfect, and get the fee lowered as much as possible. Please email me with any advice – thanks!

  36. What intersection? As far as I know, there are no cameras on Market Street. If you saw a flash, it might have been a spark from the train’s overhead electrical connection.

  37. Aren – I don’t know the exact intersection I was at, but it wasn’t near downtown – closer to Church or Castro. It did look just like a camera flash…and it wasn’t directly above the train. I wonder if there is a list online somewhere of San Francisco red light cameras?

  39. Roger or Aren,

    I recieved a ticket at Geary and Franklin. Looked at the picture and I see my car behind the lines at 2Y3 and R00 and my car crossing the line at .08 and R01….can’t really decipher the meaning if my car actually cross the lines at yellow but didn’t make it all the way to the end.

    I can’t afford to pay 480 and don’t want the points on record? what should I do? Should I go to court next Tuesday and try to fight it?

  40. Jenny K:: Aren knows better than I, but I looked up the data bar on another ticket.
    Photo #1 taken when your car is at the limit line has a number in upper right. Something like R00.4 Photo #2 has a different number in the same position – maybe something like R1.01 Anyway the number in photo #1 is the amount of time the light was red when you approached the limit line. The number in photo #2 is the amount of time the light has been red when the photo of your car was taken. Usually about one or so seconds after the #1 photo.

    2Y3 may be the yellow light time – I am not sure.

  41. I just received my Automated Red Light Citation in the mail yesterday. South Van Ness Ave at 14th Street. $480!! From the looks of the pictures and the readings I guess I was guilty. Red time was .8 of a second when I crossed into the intersection. Not sure I blink that fast, but what the hey. I don’t have $480 to pay this ticket. Should I show up, plead guilty and see if they’ll have mercy? I don’t live in the city and the monster truck next to me coming up Van Ness scared the crap out of me so I just tried to ditch him at that light. Do I have any chance of getting this ticket reduced???

  42. In early Nov I received a citation for violation V21453A (which I believe to be a right turn on a red without stopping long enough) that says ‘date of this notice Nov 7th)
    It was sent to my old address, then forwarded, even though my new address is on my drivers license. I don’t have record of when I actually received the ticket.
    On Nov 17 I went to the hall of Justice as described, and was told they don’t do that anymore, that I had to write to the city attorney. I wrote to the city attorney and faxed my request for the Photo Prosecution Packet. I included my correct mailing address in the request.
    On 11-29, the day after the ‘due date’ on the original ticket, I got my packet (after it was re-routed from the wrong address).
    Dec 4th I broke my leg and was admitted to the hospital for a week and was heavily medicated.

    So now I have my photo prosecution packet (it’s hard to tell, but it’s me) and a broken leg, and the inability to drive myself anywhere.
    What do I do now? Can I request a court date and beg for the $80 deal still? Can I request a court date without going to court before the date? Traveling is a nightmare for me, I have to find someone to take me, it hurts, all that fun stuff. Please, any advice…

  43. To Going Crazy….Call the courthouse and ask for an extension. Ask them many of the questions you asked here. If the picture is not clearly you, then I would suggest asking a judge to dismiss your ticket. Maybe by mail if not in person. You need to do something in order to avoid a “failure to appear” and the $300 assessement.

  45. Mags..If you give me citation no. and pin no. maybe I can figure something out. I know ways to lessen the pain here in Fremont because I know how each of 3 judges operates, more or less. I don’t know about SF judges.
    Is community service an option? Is calling Sherry Gendelman, atty in SSF an option? Is spending time on a legal defense an option? I don’t have a magic wand, but will do what I can…rlouisj@aol.com

  46. Hi Aren / All

    PLEASE HELP

    Just got a ticket (red light violation) at Octavia Blvd and Oak Str in San Francisco for $480.

    I was in the middle lane, which is designated to go straight, however, I was trying to move over into the lane on my right hand side which is designated for a right hand turn. As I was trying to switch lanes the traffic was so heavy that no one wanted to let me in so I ended up going almost all the way to the light.

    The light was red for straight and GREEN to turn right (for the two lanes on the right side) I squeezed into the lane on the right and proceeded as the light was GREEN. Somehow, camera got me but on the photo it is clear that I am turning right and that the light is green, you can actually see the light being GREEN.

    The only issue is that I changed right before the light, but, the lanes are perforated meaning you can still switch lanes. Not sure what to do? Should I challenge it or go to the office and see if they will reduce the fine?

    What do you guys think I should do? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    Serge

  47. Serge, I have seen two similar trials. They were violations where folks were in the left turn lane and merged into the through direction, however. L/T lane had a red; Straight had a green.
    It is fairly easy (it seems to me) to beat, however, both defendants lost. You may have been guilty of an illegal lane change. This infraction cannot be photo enforced. In one case, the defendant agreed to plead guilty to an illegal lane change. The other case, the judge (who was not too bright) found him guilty of running the red.
    To me, it seems that the difference is in the way you state your case. Most people do not do a very good job.
    Anyway, I would suggest a Trial by Written Declaration. Get some help drafting your defense. If not successful, you have 30 days to have a trial (Trial de Novo) before a real judge or commissioner. Interested???

  48. Here is my situation. I ran a red light without knowing about it until my friends told me. According to them the light was red and I was still going, I didn’t speed or anything, I just kept GOING. They said they did not see the light flash however it was noon when this happen. The cars on either side of me were still, so I’m guessing the red light just turn red. My questions are:

    1) How long will it take for the ticket to come in the mail.

    2) Also since my car is register to my mum, will she be getting the letter? And what do I do to tell them that its me (because I do not want to wait another month for them to find out that its me. I admit I ran the light, I will pay the fine. And go to traffic school)

    3) How many points will this be on my driving records. Should I get a driving record copy BEFORE they send me the letter?

    4) Will this affect my insurance?

    Basically, what do I do? First time, my driving record is clean. No other ticket.

  49. Hi Roger/Aren, anybody?

    My mom received a red light citation at 19th ave and Sloat in SF.

    The red light camera is on at 0.3 sec and on the picture her car is barely touching the intersection line, the speed of the car is at 31mph (speed limit is 35 or 40 there). On the picture there is another car behind my mom (probably also going 30). Can I challenge this citation by one of the methods:

    1) Trial By Written Declaration and then Trial De Nuevo
    or
    2) Showing up to court on the date to appear, asking for lowered amount (how much they usually lower to?) and traffic school request
    or
    3) If perhaps you know of someone like Sherry (mentioned above) but in the SF county that would be of help?

    Any of your advice is much appreciated.

  50. @Roger J – thanks for the advice. I was planning to do a trial by written deceleration. Basically from the photo its hard to tell that i did anything wrong as you can clearly see my car turning right and the light is green. However, the lane change might be an issue.

    Do you help people draft/review these letters or do you know someone who does?

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